Speaking of Gene's mounts,
A friend made me some very nice elevation adjusting screws which are manipulated with either a 3/16 or 8 mm opened end wrench. In my estimation this is a significant improvement and makes the mount a lot more user friendly.
No, absolutely not, my friend WILL NOT make any more of them
Gene's Scope Set Up is not really any heavier than a standard 45 x Leupold and rings. Removing the turrets as part of the freezing allows for the extra weight of the external adjustable mount.
His tuner weighs about 4 ounces. With a Scoville Stock, you can use a 82 ounce barrel and make weight with no problems.........jackie
I tried a tuner on my Rail, and it was a disaster.
Here is the problem. As long as you shot slow, picking the condition, it would shoot fantastic. But, when you really started to run, the tuner, (it seems), would not let the barrel settle down, resulting in in groups that you would think came out of a Factory 30-30.
This is not a problem with a Bag Gun because regardless of how fast you can shoot, the barrelstill has timeto settle.
I may be all wet as to what caused this, but it happens. And not just on my Rail. We installed a tuner, about 18 ounces worth, on Bill Sturms Rail and if you ran it as fast as the Rail would let you, it would shoot 5/8 groups at 100 yards. Big, round globs.
This is exactly what you would expect from a tuner that is too light.When Bill Calfee was allowed to post here he told us exactly what to look for and why you wanted the weight a given distance out in front.In Jackies description about his shots flying all over the place due to the muzzle whipping around from the weght on the end not settling down between shots it would seem his muzzle is not at a node.
I don't know how his rail is set-up but assuming a 1.450 barrel 27-28 inches long and a action with a 1 inch tenon and a barrel block 2-3 inches in front of that I get 23-24 inches minus whatever length his bedding takes up in the block.If the bedding inside the barrel block was 4-8 inches he would essentially have a barrel 1.450 in diameter by 15-19 inches long.Assuming you read what Bill Calfee said years ago while everyone here was quickly becoming a member of "The Funny People" I would say the 18 ounces didn't shoot very well at all and neither would 28 ounces.
I also think the poster who described what he heard from Gene Beggs was dead on in how a tuner works.
Of course 5 years ago I spent most of my posts asking the very same people who now like tuners to let Bill speak to no avail.
Last edited by Lynn; 05-04-2010 at 01:25 AM.
The Funny People:
I have found it interesting through the years that nothing new works until it becomes someone elses idea. All of a sudden everyone has the answers for everything they have just discovered. It never ceases to amaze me.
Very few people ever say they were wrong in the past about things such as tuners, weighing charges, measuring bullets; the list goes on - - --
I ddn't find the "Funny People' funny back then as they seemed to violate Wilbur's rule that "nobody gets hurt".I find them even less funny now as many of them now claim it was there way of doing it or there way of setting it all up that made it all work.HogWash!!!!!!
Only Francis admits he was wrong all along so despite what he said years ago atleast he was man enough to set the record straight in another post and I admire that.
Bill said long ago he would be given no credit at all and he was even correct on that.
What we finally surmised was the barrel picked up a secondary vibration when the top of Bill's Rail was place against the stop. This happenned just about at the exact same time as the next round was being released. As I said, when shooting slow, the thing shot great. Only when taking advantage of the one thing that sets a Rail Gun apart from a Bag Gun did the problem arise.
I failed to mention that I made a brass tuner that weighd 34 ounces, and it did the same thing. You could tune the barrel to where it shot very good, only to have it spray shots when shot as fast as the Rail would allow.
The solution to this would probably be to incorporate a return to battery that does not feature a positive stop.Jerry Hensler designed one for his light weight Rail idea that had two opposing springs. The Rail Top was self centering after each shot with no abrupt stop. But, he designed the Top around that system. I never couldfigure out a way to incorporate it into a more conventional Rail Top.........jackie
I am on year three now of using a tuner for group and score (Benchrest 100 & 200 yards) – just a beginner by most measurements of time in this sport. As a relatively new shooter I’ve had some level of success using tuners as one of my tools and have formed several opinions.
1. I would recommend anyone interesting in tuners or weights read Varmint Als web site (several times). Suspect he has one of the best published works on-line to explain barrel vibrations and the impact of adding weight to the end of a barrel.
2. Tuners are not a guarantee of small groups! Tuners/weights in general will improve a guns performance but will not make up for a multitude of other possible issues.
3. Tune your gun and components before you play with a tuner. If you cannot establish Benchrest aggs. without the tuner I think you’re wasting your time. Fix your other problems first.
4. Tuners are not a quick fix but require a lot of range time and testing - work!
a. Document everything.
b. Determine how you will track your results (Humidity, Temperature, Density Altitude or Phase of the Moon!) but it does not help to have a tuner and not know what to do.
c. You must run multiple ladder tests measuring impact point, vertical displacement and group size. Due to so many variables you must establish a trend to understand the results and this requires multiple tests.
d. Testing is best performed in a tunnel for consistent results or pick your best range condition days to test.
e. The requirements on tuner weight and placement change! What works for CF, Short Range Benchrest, Long Range, etc. is not the same. Gun configuration (barrel length/taper, gun weight, etc.) may require a different solution.
RESULTS MAY VARY!
I read every thread regarding tuners published here. My hope each time is to gain some knowledge from others efforts in testing their specific configuration and determine how to apply this to my tuning system. Perhaps there is room for me to improve or I’ve over looked some technical detail – nothing in this sport is perfect. I would not expect any time soon to see the “tuning bible” published that answers to all our questions. Each shooters style, gun, components are different and you must find “your” solution. My goal at every event is to match my shooting skills against others and be certain my equipment is not the limiting factor. The wind remains the great equalizer!
Tuners/Weights are not the solution to all your problems, just another tool you can add to your bag at the range.
Just my opinion.
Do you think that you have enough experience and Bill input to calculate your barrel length, contour, and tuner configuration for a well balanced 10.5# 6PPC that works like a Calfee rimfire, or will it be cut and try? Care to make any predictions?
The blue gun below weighs in a just a touch over 10 pounds as you see it below. Jim and the others at the Borden Rifles facility built this one for me, she will make weight with a Leupold but I've only shot it with the Weaver. It's a 30BR and I shoot it free recoil. Trust me, it will wake you up when you pull the trigger. However, it shoots great! The tuner is very easy to adjust and is quite predictable. You may find it of interest how far back the tuner is placed.
Originally Posted by Boyd Allen
Back to Shinny's question
Yes there is experience with gene Begg's Tuner, Butch Lambert Tuner, Jim Borden Tuner, Jackie Schmidt tuner, Calfee tuner, etc.
I have used my own, Butch's and gene's. They all work. In fact my barrels are threaded so I can go back and forth between mine and the One I have that Butch made me-both work--but with different load. Butch's tuner id in front of the muzzle and from my experience it took smaller adjustments to make a change in tune than mine which is behind the muzzle. Just different strokes for different folks. The bottom line is the science works. Just take a look at the different ones and decide which one you wish to use and spend the time putting bullets down the barrel and figure one out.
No need for any of us to get all worked up about it.
Of the tuners I have mounted
Originally Posted by Jim Borden
Jim's is the best one for the rifle and barrel it is on and I assume would work the same on any other barrel. My only complaint with it is astetics; dang, they are "Plain Lookin", ain't they? A little knurling somewhere would mebby dress her up a little, eh? Or made from Stainless a bit bigger if necessary but Brass on SS ! Well, I guess it's becomes a matter of taste but I prefer the behind the muzzle so far for CF rifles and as I said, Like Jim's.
Last edited by Pete Wass; 05-05-2010 at 08:04 AM.
I have yet to get into the 6ppc game but when I do my gun will be wearing a tuner and I would be suprised if it weighed less than 6 ounces set-up like Bill Calfee does it out in front.
I will be using a Borden action Jewell trigger McMillan Edge stock and a fixed power Leupold scope.All of my ammo will be pre-loaded as well and the seating depth will go unchanged.I will probaly shoot sacramento and visalia so you can check it out for yourself firsthand if your the Boyd from southern cal.
You didn't say if my guess about your railgun barrel was close or not but my 1.450 barrel has 21 inches passed the bedding material in the barrel block and it took just over 3 pounds to get it settled down for a very fast string.I am using a tuner off of a 22 rimfire unlimited gun and yes it is heavier than 48 ounces even when it was on a 22 rimfire.I ran the weight all the way to 5 pounds or 80 ounces before making my final decision.
I use a 1.450 diameter 22 1/2 inch long barrel on my Rail, 2 inches sticking out the back, and a 6 1/2 inch long barrel block. That leaves 14 inches sticking out of the block.
I did away with the delren isolator sleeve, and started lapping the barrel into the V- block, after lightly skinning it dead true and round. I secure it with only 75 inch pounds of torque on the bolts.........jackie
Jackie just a curious question
You mentioned "lightly skinning it dead true and round", you know how ignorant I can be but on one hand I always figured the barrels were dead true and round and on the other hand since I didnt know for sure I often wondered if there could be anything gained in accuracy from turning the whole barrel dead true and round.
I figure like most things that probably not and that someone else has already tried it.
Enlighten me please.
Originally Posted by Lynn
Looks like the message from you is plan the rifle around a tuner big enough to Stop the muzzle ?