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Thread: Bench Rotation

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    Jacksomville Fl
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    197

    Bench Rotation

    Sanctioned Maches, under the old rules, bench rotation occurred if you pre-registered and at the the Nationals. Now we come to a definition:
    What is a sanctioned match?
    SANCTIONED MATCH
    A club must be sanctioned to hold an officially recognized USRA-IR50/50 match. Sanction dues are $20.00 per current year. Match dates and starting time for matches must be sent to USRA-IR50/50 thirty (30) days in advance of first match date. Sanctioning by USRA-IR50/50 of a club's scheduled matches will be forfeited by that club if matches are not held in accordance with the Official Rules stated in this rule book.

    Now, new rules have been enacted by someone:
    BENCHES
    Drawing for bench and relay is required at every sanctioned match. Computer software approved by USRA-IR50/50 may be used for bench drawing.
    Multi-day or multi-match events are allowed the option to draw bench and relay for each match or draw bench and relay once. If a single drawing is implemented, benches shall be rotated after each class such that a competitor will traverse the entire firing line over the course of the event as far as mathematically possible. An example of one drawing would be a 2 day state championship event at a range with 20 benches. The competitors would draw once and rotate 3 benches each class over both days. (20 benches divided by 6 targets = 3 with an unusable remainder.)

    I wrote to Wilbur asking for an explanation and received an e-mail. I got an answer that I truly don't understand. It seemed to me that we had to rotate even on a local level, since they are sanctioned matches. The Crawfish is coming up and I , personally comply and therefore will not shoot this type o0f match, except at the Nationals, with help.
    Where did this rule come from?
    The above are pasted from the current rule book.
    I'd rather pay dues and have a say rather than be dictated to.
    I'm sorry if I've offended you but I'm tired of the system and feel that it has to be changed ASAP
    Sincerely
    Bob Pekaar

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    upstate, N.Y.
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    Virtually every form of benchrest competition has had some form of bench rotation dating back several years. IR50 does not require it at normal SOTY matches but does for big matches because it's fair and tends to even out any bench advantages real or percieved. Why would this be an issue???

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Location
    Wilkes County, N.C.
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    "Drawing for bench and relay is required at every sanctioned match. Computer software approved by USRA-IR50/50 may be used for bench drawing.
    Multi-day or multi-match events are allowed the option to draw bench and relay for each match or draw bench and relay once. If a single drawing is implemented, benches shall be rotated after each class such that a competitor will traverse the entire firing line over the course of the event as far as mathematically possible. An example of one drawing would be a 2 day state championship event at a range with 20 benches. The competitors would draw once and rotate 3 benches each class over both days. (20 benches divided by 6 targets = 3 with an unusable remainder.)"

    Bob, Looks to me like the key word there is OPTION. Looks like if you drew for each day or each match, rotation would not be required, or the way I see it, that's what it says. I'm assuming you're referring to double 3 gun or UL matches shot on the same day?
    I've only been the the Crawfish a couple of times, 2007 and 2008, missed 2009, great range, great folks, but I recall rotating benches both times.


    However, we have a 15 bench range with about half the benches actually be used due to poor turnout. We do shoot double -3gun matches and from the rules we'd be required to redraw for benches for the second match, which we have done in the past. Everyone hates it, and it's stupid on a 15 bench range.
    This wasn't a probem until we were allowed to shoot double matches. I had hoped the rule would be changed to keep folks from having to move all their equipment. But, hope and change just don't seem to get 'er done.
    I'm tempted to go back to basket weaving and crocheting.
    Last edited by Kent Owens; 03-30-2010 at 01:27 AM. Reason: took out all the cuss words

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Savannah, GA
    Posts
    646

    Bend the Rules & they will break.

    Rules are an attempt to level the playing field and rotation is one such rule.
    Every Range I have ever shot at has some benches that are an advantage to shoot from and some a disadvantage.
    For State, Regional & National matches a level playing field is paramount to a fair competition.
    However Club & SOTY matches tend to be self policing due to their size, the nature of the shooters & their relationships. So Rotation becomes less important.

    An example of self policing:
    The better Range Masters that I know will set up the range based on the number of shooters they expect. In general they utilize the center of the range & not the ends where there might be a “Honey Hole” or a “Tornado Pit”. Thus in effect they have leveled the playing field without rotation.

    I do not think the Rule on Benches was ever meant to require Rotation at the Club Level.
    It was meant for State, Regional & National Matches.

  5. #5
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    Feb 2003
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    Upstate, NY
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    I think Kent hit it. If you draw benches rotation is not required. That will cover all your local matches and a lot of state matches. For a two day match drawing for both Sat. & Sun. will eliminate the need to rotate. Fair?, depends on the draw. I am a firm believer that if you rotate benches, you should also rotate relays the second day. I know some believe this can't be done because of computor input problems changing relays. My answer to them, don't change the shooter's relay number just the start times. Relay one shoots at nine on Sat. followed by relay two. On Sun., relay two shoots at nine followed by relay one. Competitor number and relay stay the same so it doesn't mess up the computor.

    One other thought, If you have separate drawings for Sat. & Sun., draw the Sunday relay on Sat. pm. That will speed up the Sunday shooting and allow shooters to set flags before the meters practice on sat. Anyone that shows up Sun. am can draw then.

    Ken Henderson

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Orange Park, Fl.
    Posts
    219

    Red face Crawfish Shoot & Bench Rotation

    After much discussion with other match directors, shooters, and our leadership concerning the pro's and con's of bench rotation and the way the rules are written, I know that not all competitors are going to be satisfied with the decision that I, as a Match Director, am going to make. As Kent and Ken have addressed it, the operative word is "Option" and I choose that option. At the Florida State Match this year, we will NOT rotate benches. We will draw twice, once for Saturday's yards competition and once for Sunday's meters competition. Drawing will commence on friday the 16th of April at 3:00pm. I know that this decision will please some competitors and will be the displeasure of others and I accept that responsibility without reservation. I also know that this is the first big match of our season and that it will set the precedence of how our season is to be run at other up-coming State matches. We, at Gateway Rifle and Pistol club will continue to offer the best possible start to our season of IR50/50 Rimfire Benchrest Competition. We will have the range open for practice thursday and friday at 8:00am until sundown. This year we will have coffee and donuts for breakfast on Saturday and Sunday morning. Free water and soft drinks will be available for both the practice and competition sessions. We will have some beautiful plaques for the winners and door prize drawings for the competitors. On Saturday for the lunch feast we will have all you care to eat, Crawfish, Shrimp, coleslaw, chips and drinks. I would appreciate an early head count so I will know how much shrimp and crawfish to order, so let me know if you plan to attend. If you plan to put up a tent, let me know so that I can assign you a space. We will have diagonal parking across from the firing line so that we can accomodate a larger number of tent spaces. We now have 4 handicapped parking spaces and a wheelchair ramp for accessability. If you want a campsite/RV site let me know and I will make a reservation for you, all have water and electrical hook-ups. These are my contact numbers, Hm-904-276-1008, cell-904-534-1219, Wk.-904-790-6112. E-mail, william.l.smith2@navy.mil. Hope to see you real soon. Bill
    Last edited by William Smith; 03-30-2010 at 10:38 AM. Reason: spelling

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Duluth, GA
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    37

    Bill, thats the way it should be done!

    Bill,
    Thanks!
    From my point of view as a SHOOTER, and you as a MATCH DIRECTOR, you just did the most important thing. You told us how it is going to be run! That is very important. I think a Match Director needs to let the Shooters know how they are going to run a match, and then, RUN IT THAT WAY. There is not any need in changes after the shoot has been setup or started.
    Thanks Tim

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Greenbranch Swamp - Fairhope, Al.
    Posts
    500

    Thump

    it's your show, it's always been run Top Notch. Either way some will not be happy, that's just the way it is. I'm ready to have some fun, see old friends and eat gooooood seafood. If there is any bitching, lets hope they keep it to themselves and don't try to ruin it for others. Essayons!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Wilkes County, N.C.
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    I haven't shot RBA in a couple of years. Does RBA require you to redraw for benches if you are shooting a double club match?



    I'd like to see an option not to have to redraw for the double club matches. Something as simple as taking a vote of the shooters and if one guy wanted to redraw, we would redraw for the second match. Sounds reasonable.

  10. #10
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    Feb 2003
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    Upstate, NY
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    Kent,

    I think that is almost an unwritten rule now. My not be to the letter of the law but, it does seem to happen all over the country.

    Ken

  11. #11
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    Apr 2003
    Location
    Wilkes County, N.C.
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    This has been a very reasonable discussion. Mr. Pekaar brought it up and I'm glad that he did.
    As far as rotation goes, we all know that rotation is the only fair thing to do at some ranges. On a couple of ranges in particular, your scores can improve depending on where you are. All you guys who shoot know what I'm talking about, it ain't the same everywhere when you have berms blocking wind from some benches, and not on others.
    So, all that said, I prefer rotation at some ranges for regionals, Nationals, etc., because it's the only fair thing to do.
    But on a 15 bench range or 10 bench range with 8-10 shooters shooting a double 3 gun or UL match I don't see the nescessity of it.
    I'd like the option of taking a vote of the participants of that match and if even ONE wanted to rotate, or change benches after the first match, we would redraw for the second match.
    So far everyone has acted semi civilized, what do you shooters and MD's think? Go ahead and chew me out if I'm out of line, but I'll chew back too
    One thing I've never been accused of "is having good sense" I may be way out of line. But I like the game and the people, and shooting's ok too. But, working on rifles is the most fun!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    67

    Bench Rotation

    Kent,

    I have to concur with you. It is range specific, because at some ranges there are 'tough' benches to shoot from, and who wants to be saddled with the worst bench for a Double Event?

    I also agree with TangoTwo (Ken): it is kind of an unwritten rule to draw for different benches at a two event match.

    That said, time is another factor to consider. Moving flags and gear is a hassle; it takes time, and effort. At Hagerstown, MD (where I was an IR 50/50 MD for many years), I found if the two events were run back to back, starting in the morning, time was not a problem. Folks could change flags, and move their gear to a different benches during the lunch break.

    However, if the matches started in the PM and ran until after dusk (we have lights at Hagerstown), time could be a factor. This was especially true for the folks who came from out of town. If the match ran too late, they might have to stay at a lodging facility.

    Why shoot at night? Because folks liked to shoot UL after dusk, when the conditions were terrific. But it was not worth the candle to spend a night in a motel; because a one day event took two days, not to mention all the extra expense for meals and lodging. For that reason alone, we changed to SOTY morning matches, and UL starting after lunch. Usually we were done and packed up by 2:30PM.

    All ranges are different, so I think the idea of asking all the shooters, if they are willing to take a bench for both events is an excellent idea. However, if you get just one shooter who wants bench rotation, a drawing is in order.

    Just my two cents, Doug Miller

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida
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    509
    At our range, when the shooters sign up I ask each shooter if they want to rotate benches. Seeing that we are only shooting two target ARA matches this year, so far all the shooters have said "no". If one shooter says "yes" then we will rotate....

    Dave

  14. #14
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    Feb 2003
    Location
    Jacksomville Fl
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    197

    Bench Rotation

    Quote Originally Posted by tim View Post
    Virtually every form of benchrest competition has had some form of bench rotation dating back several years. IR50 does not require it at normal SOTY matches but does for big matches because it's fair and tends to even out any bench advantages real or percieved. Why would this be an issue???
    Well, first of all, you haven't read the rules recently. See what a sanctioned match is. Then, the next big match you go to see how many of those shooters are over 65 or 70- I have friends here in Jax and at Kettlefoot with medical problems that make it difficult to move flags and equipment and hang their own targets. The "level the playing field" is a misnomer. If you can't figure out how to shoot one bench after the first target then you deserve the score you got. It's like the old saying:"A good carpenter can work with any tools" IMHO, a good shooter can read the conditions at any position and shoot well- my example is Bob Collins- take a look at the South Georgia scores. IMHO, bench rotation is a joke and sneaking it into rules is a bigger joke. Sure, there are no dues, but it seems IR 50/50 is mimiking the way the Federal government is run.
    Bob Pekaar
    Last edited by Bob Pekaar; 04-01-2010 at 10:02 AM.

  15. #15
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    Apr 2006
    Location
    Gas City, IN
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    597
    Bob Pekkar,
    Tim said it right...in most forms of benchrest competition that bench rotation is the norm. There is a reason for that. It has nothing to do with older shooters or their health. Please listen. There are some ranges that even with drawing (which is required by ARA for benches) doesn't allow for a fair chance without rotation. I'm a match director at a range that if rotation wasn't directed......it would not be fair. Rotation allows for fairness. But, I've seen some match directors have an exception for those that are disabled. They draw for benches and rotate around the person who has a physical difficulty of doing so. But fair is fair. Does it matter that your young, old, able, or not? Fair is fair.

    John M. Carper

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