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Thread: 12ga Fh- 8ga Fh- 700he

  1. #301
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Brinton, MI
    Here is a picture of the 12ga FH brass case that Nathan

    Vale had Bertrams make. Next to short plastic case.

    Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect lettering

    for our case as it came from production line,.

    I like Hogue stocks, but they aren't made for singleshots.

    We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and 585HE.

    Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we adapted

    a Hogue 1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better, and

    handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to add weight,

    Here is picture of 585 case in the Lawton bolt, and the wildcat

    375s and others made from our cases, work in bolt also. Ed

  2. #302
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Brinton, MI
    Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with his 24ga FH he did in
    a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good job.

    Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new COTW book
    published in Oct, now out for sale,

    We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made by necking down our 585 HE.
    The others couldn't make enough 375s, so we started our own. It has different
    shoulder taper, length, neck length, improved over the others...Got a bunch
    guys doing it, most into the 2 mile shooting venues, We're making cases,
    testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting guys going. The 2 mile
    shoot last year really got the interest booming for 375 necked from our case,

    Here's how, size and seat 375 HE, one simple die, a 1" die, no huge dies needed
    A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a regular die body,then
    pass on to the next guy, one reamer can make whole bunch of dies for folks.

    I do primer work separate, not in the press. SO First with lock ring set, I size cases.

    When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the case still well centered,
    held straight, when it is down as far as the length of the 375 HE neck... IE
    the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight.

    So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness as neck length,
    below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in press,

    Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill bushing and other stuff same thread,
    reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram, case,and bullet up,

    After priming, loading in the powder charge, we carefully start(boat tail makes it easy)
    bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder, raise ram to to top, bullet seated
    perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as big enough to hold seating
    bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items.

    These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no crimping needed, and notice
    bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no 380-500 buck special dies.
    Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate.

    OVER 900 375HE cases piled behind presses getting done. About 600 on another
    bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will do more.

    All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is public domain, worldwide,
    for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed

  3. #303
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Brinton, MI
    Here is picture of one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada got in

    Africa with our 24ga FH he did on a NEF, in 2nd picture

    Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for the top that

    are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind

    from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600 on

    another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere,

    We also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun, starting with

    lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700,

    Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders needed

    to get that, and have info where to get powders. Reamer prints are

    at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain... Ed

  4. #304
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Brinton, MI
    Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing 585 HE

    they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from

    ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel would be

    over 2900, 14000 ft lbs with full load..

    Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left.

    Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is 400gr bullet.

    Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole stock.

    So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600.

    Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die,

    test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm specs.

    When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys

    Soon will have 408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,

    Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for

    our bigger case .Ed

  5. #305
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Manhattan & Sag Harbor, N.Y.

  6. #306
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Brinton, MI
    Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot loaded
    hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance
    for the expanding slug.

    Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases,
    2 on left necked, 2 on right formed in hydro die after necking..

    Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting
    with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case.
    Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
    Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. In the picture,
    1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 HE, 4th 378 WEA.

    416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action,
    470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416..
    Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel
    to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and srtill be under 50 lbs.
    A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.

    Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once,
    next to bmg case we make it from and as we
    improve wildcatting process next few weeks
    some specs may make small changes, now from
    base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..

    Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
    He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
    We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted, ,
    Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes also,
    Questions, PM or email. ph 989-644-5228..

    Here are final specs for 416 HE.
    Length 3.32", belt diameter ,655", base dia .635" ,
    length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed

  7. #307
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Brinton, MI
    Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for 28ga and
    410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases.
    They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
    our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass cases or have
    RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
    410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..

    Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original
    BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have
    enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure,
    in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting
    work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
    We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs.....
    And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.

    Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE, have whole bunch.
    Second is model of what I'd have made on medium machine, if I could,
    the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr..
    Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg
    cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 ..

    Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles using Paul
    Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal Precision in
    375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very similiar to 375HE )...
    It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide.

    Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3 of 5 at 3520 yards,
    weekend 10-13th at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio.
    Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE
    Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot Challenge. Ed

  8. #308
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Brinton, MI
    The 12ga FH case now is in the new COTW book on
    last page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
    They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that case....

    The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,

    has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,

    on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr.. Ed..

    More info out now; short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected.
    Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case
    proportions, too sharp of shoulders, too fast of powders...........
    and debth of the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture below..
    My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed.

  9. #309
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Brinton, MI
    Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
    made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed

    Here is picture of 375 HE left, 416 HE next, 416 HSM right..

    Here, tentative specs, 416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,

    A 375 HE, with Lawton action, bunch being done with those .....

  10. #310
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    How does the .375 HE compare to .375 CT Imp? Also, do you have a working rifle built yet for .416 HSM?

  11. #311
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Brinton, MI
    375 HE at least 300 fps faster..

    Got a light barrel 416 HSM done for fireforming ,
    waiting on heavy barrel ,, have got light 350gr over 4000,

    A 585 HE ...shot with moderate heavy

    Here is a 375 HE target gun set up, by Asteroid Precision...

    Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr bullet about 3450-3475,

    bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's just getting started

    and is checking on better powder, Ed..

  12. #312
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Brinton, MI
    Here is recap simple setup to get faster loads with 12ga sabots

    & slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming chamber

    in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5" 12ga reamer, that isn't

    something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or

    get 3.5" brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and

    our slower powder loads you can get a quarter more speed,

    which gives 50% more energy...

    585 Hubel Express video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy load, gun little light.....

    Another view of Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,

    Here is our 416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed

  13. #313
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Brinton, MI
    Here in picture of the cases, are shown the steps in making

    our 416 HSM case, from BMG brass,, Ed

    We might have a company that is doing a bolt gun with an action

    between BMG size and longer rifle actions used for 375 HE,

    375 Lethal, and Cheytacs.. To use for our 416 HSM without

    having to do extreme rebating of the rim.

    Here is picture of 620 416 hsm cases half done. Done on cnc ,

    that slimmed them down, cut new rim and extractor groove.

    There are over 500 more at cnc getting done now, plus we have

    1000s more bmg cases we make them from, when needed..

    This case is public domain and if anyone wants to make

    them we can give the steps involved...Ed.

  14. #314
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Brinton, MI
    For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 easier to get powders to work with, less problems ..
    Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....

    We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
    CEB and others will have bullets...CEB will be doing .416 in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

    Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
    did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per
    side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..

    I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is
    no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.

    And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
    more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually
    hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..

    And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have
    15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..

  15. #315
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Brinton, MI
    Here is a drawing depicting the layout of thick and thin sided cases,
    like my 585/375/416 HE thin sided ones and the thick one in picture.

    And my 585 case is not perfect, as where it transitions from the
    heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there
    shortening case life. There are others made that way including brand X.
    The dotted line is what it should be............

    Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they
    stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and
    don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move
    it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides.

    Here is picture of six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE
    and 6th is thick sided version. 1st 600 OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added

    In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run.
    Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE, but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness,
    not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they last forever as 585s......

    Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner
    and sharp transition from the corner, tested 20 years ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads
    as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will get 10 hot loads, and necked down to
    416/375 4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent, factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.

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