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Thread: .22 -243 long range with 175 gr. bullet?

  1. #1
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    .22 -243 long range with 175 gr. bullet?

    A while back there was a picture of a 22-243 with a 175 grain bullet with a BC of close to 800 that was used for long range shooting out to 1,500 yards. They even said who made the bullets.

    Does anyone remember it and could you post it and the picture.

    Ticks me off because I deleted the picture from my deak top last week.

    If I am mistaken let me know. I do think that my memory isn't that bad yet. I hope.

    gt40
    Last edited by gt40; 02-21-2008 at 02:55 PM.

  2. #2
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    Gt40,

    Somthing doesn't add up here. A 22-243 would not use a 175gn bullet. 75gn perhaps.

  3. #3
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    There was a picture of the loaded case and the projectile looked like might be 1 1/2" long. The throut in the barrel was especially long to accomidate such a long bullet.

    gt40

  4. #4
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    Could it have been this?? 226 Barnes QT. QT means quick twist. Bullet is 125 grains. Barrel has a 5 1/2 twist. Made from a 257 Roberts Impr case.

    I don't remember posting the photo here, or any of the other stuff you mentioned. It must have been somebody else although I don't know any other collector who has one.

    There were several other QT calibers & cartridges. Some were loaded with bore-rider type bullets.

    Ray
    Last edited by Cheechako; 02-21-2008 at 03:06 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
    Could it have been this?? 226 Barnes QT. QT means quick twist. Bullet is 125 grains. Barrel has a 5 1/2 twist. Made from a 257 Roberts Impr case.

    I don't remember posting the photo here, or any of the other stuff you mentioned. It must have been somebody else although I don't know any other collector who has one.

    There were several other QT calibers & cartridges. Some were loaded with bore-rider type bullets.

    Ray
    Ray, can you even get Barnes QT bullets anymore? I haven't seen one of them in 30 years!!

    My question has always been why the QT series?

  6. #6
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    Jerry

    The QTs were from the Fred N. Barnes era back when he was making bullets from copper tubing in Colorado. When was that? The 1940s and 50s ? I don't know if Fred is still alive. Isn't the current line of Barnes' bullets descended from his business?

    If I remember, Fred was into extremely long range big game shooting. The 226 QT pushed that 125 gr bullet at 2800 fps +/-. The 6.5 QT used a 200 gr bullet at the same velocity, I think. Both were loaded with .50 BMG powder. The 257 Condor was very similar but was not one of Barnes' creations. I think Norma even made factory Condor ammunition but it is now a collectors item and rarely seen.

    Some of those ballistics don't seem too much by today's standards but back then they were considered revolutionary.

    Here's a 257 Condor.

    Ray

    Last edited by Cheechako; 02-21-2008 at 03:38 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
    Jerry

    The QTs were from the Fred N. Barnes era back when he was making bullets from copper tubing in Colorado. When was that? The 1940s and 50s ? I don't know if Fred is still alive. Isn't the current line of Barnes' bullets descended from his business?

    Here's a 257 Condor.

    Ray

    Thanks Ray. I have a book (the PO Ackley set-I think) that has the entire QT series in it. Its just that I have always wondered "why"?

  8. #8
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    Thanks guys,

    The info I read before probably was inaccurate which "rarely" haha happens on the internet. I shouldn't have thought it was gospel.

    Oh, I never new that the 257 Roberts was a "belted" case like in the picture.

    If anyone else has any info feel free to add it here.

    "Aim small miss small",

    gt40

    PS: I think I am seeing double ?????? You'al put two different photos here. The unbelted one is the one I had on my desk top.
    Last edited by gt40; 02-21-2008 at 05:40 PM.

  9. #9
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    Never heard of .22/175gr

    but 125 Barnes apparently had exist in the 40-50s as someone already mentioned it here.
    A 0.2mm thick copper clading on a tungsten carbide core (15.86grams/cubic cm) or better yet a solid tungsten core (19 something cubic cm) or a pure gold if one is wealthy enough would make it possible.
    If someone feels so rich that he/she can make and shoot golden bullets, I can gladdly become your friend and we can experiment little bit more on this subject.
    Theoretically on the paper the heavy bullet would have an amazing BC, but lack the speed.

    Shoot well
    Peter

  10. #10
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    Didn't someone make heavy bullets out of tungsten powder..

    Hal
    Last edited by Hal; 02-22-2008 at 05:09 PM.

  11. #11
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    tungsten core

    The only bullet that comes quickly to my mind with a tungsten core available today is Barnes MRX with Silvex-tungsten core.

    Rocky

  12. #12
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    GT40, I also would have loved to see a photo of the 22/243 with the 175 grain bullet, and learn the configuration of the rifle, and the velocities it produced.

    A 175 grain .224 bullet is an interesting concept, on the basis of trying to get a bullet with an incredibly high BC. However, once you start analysing the components required, you realise it is impractical in the extreme.

    The length of a 175 grain .224 bullet with a 10 caliber ogive or greater would have to be way over 1.750 inches, and possibly up near 1.900 if using a conventional lead core/copper jacket bullet design. My basis for this is:

    .224
    70 grain Berger VLD - .948 inches length
    90 grain JLK VLD - 1.230 inches "
    100 grain Wildcat ULD - 1.300 inches "
    107 grain Wildcat ULD - 1.350 inches "

    From those figures there is a .402 inch increase in length from a 70 grain VLD to a 107 grain ULD, and another similar increase in bullet weight to 144 grains would give a length of 1.752 inches. So a 175 grain bullet would be much longer than that, especially if you use the 142 and 156 grain ULD's 257 cal bullets as a further guide.

    In 257 caliber
    142 grain Wildcat ULD - 1.360 inches
    156 grain Wildcat ULD - 1.550 "

    On that basis, a 175 grain .257 cal ULD with similar profile would be 1.730 inches in length.

    It is interesting to note that the length of a .224 107 grain Wildcat ULD (1.350 in) and a .257 142 grain Wildcat ULD (1.360 in) are almost identical.

    To get sufficient length to create a 175 grain .224 bullet, you would probably have to draw down a 7mm jacket that is used to make a 160 grain bullet.

    I am currently using a .224 Clark (22/257 Roberts imp/30 deg) which has a case capacity of about 63.8 grains, and with a Krieger 26 inch 6.5 twist barrel, and using 56.0/H870, it achieves 3,200 fps with the Little 100 grain soldered core HPBT.(1.260) I have discovered that a 7 twist would have been sufficient to stabilise the Wildcat 100 grain .224 bullet.

    I am also currently using a .257W with a Krieger 26 inch 7.0 twist barrel and using 70.0/H50BMG it achieves 2,900 fps with the Wildcat 156 grain ULD. A 1 in 6 or 5.5 twist would probably be needed to stabilise a 175 grain 257 cal ULD.

    On the basis of my experience with the above, I am guessing that a 1 in 4 twist (maybe less) .224 barrel would be needed to stabilise a 175 grain bullet.

    It would have to be a stout bullet, as just 2400 fps would produce 432,000 rpm in a 4 twist barrel, and 576,000 rpm in a 3 twist barrel. However, a 22/243 (case capacity about 51- 52 grains) would probably struggle to achieve 2400 fps with a 175 grain bullet.

    Another practical problem when using the 175 grain bullet, would be finding a powder with a burning rate that would be give an acceptable loading density.

    I estimate that in my .224 Clark which holds about 60.0/H870 to the base of the neck, I would be using about 40.0/H870 to achieve max pressure with the 175 grain bullet. This would represent a loading density of about 67.0 - 75% depending on how the barrel was throated.

    A 22/243 would probably only be using about 33 grains of H870 with a 175 grain bullet at max pressure.

    Although I have been wildcatting with various cartridges for about 40 years, the concept of a 22/243 with the 175 grain bullet is even way to radical and impractical for me, and I am content to sit back and watch someone else do all the development work. Brian.

  13. #13
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    Cool Ultra-long bullets, much over 6.5 calibers are almost impossible to stabilise.

    Quote Originally Posted by gt40 View Post
    A while back there was a picture of a 22-243 with a 175 grain bullet with a BC of close to 800 that was used for long range shooting out to 1,500 yards. They even said who made the bullets.

    Does anyone remember it and could you post it and the picture.

    Ticks me off because I deleted the picture from my deak top last week.

    If I am mistaken let me know. I do think that my memory isn't that bad yet. I hope.

    gt40
    When the length of the projectile gets longer than about ~6 calibers, it is almost impossible to stabilise with the rifling twist alone. Even if you had a super fast twist, micro defects in the jacket, or core, or noze shape would cause it to fly off sideways at the first oportunity. My first experiance with this sort of thing was with a .224 Clark Improved that shot 60 grain flat base hollow points at a touch over 4,000 FPS. If the slug held together, it was absolutely devistating on Prairie puppies, out to 100 yards or so, if I was lucky. Otherwise the bullet blew up till it punched half inch holes in the paper at 50-75 yards! It left a grey streak, sort of a lead contrail and jacket splinters hitting the dust before the 100 yard target berm. Longer and slower bullets just flew off sideways with no intention of ever holing a bullseye. It had a 1/14" twist. I had it rebarreled by the original gunsmith who worked for a major chain we all know and love because they stand behine their work, so it was free. (They did not read the original spec sheet before starting work and made good on it.) At 1 turn in 8" it shot the SMK 80s into ragged one hole groups at 100 yards and Antelope out to 400 yards or so, Point Blank Range starting at 3,650 FPS. I still have that rifle and it is still the second best hunting rifle I own. It has the best combination of MV-BC to get the very longest PBR low recoil rifle on the planet. My very best long range varmit rifle is a Remington 700 Sendaro-II in .300 RUM which launches the 190 Berger VLDs at 3,280 FPS. The only problem is that they are too long to load through the magazine and have to be fed one at a time.
    I wish I could find a bullet smith who would make some ULD .224 and .308 bullets with a four caliber Ogive, 1.4 caliber parrallel mid body and .6 caliber boat tail, with a very small meplat. Call me if anyone knows of such.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian winzor View Post
    On the basis of my experience with the above, I am guessing that a 1 in 4 twist (maybe less) .224 barrel would be needed to stabilise a 175 grain bullet.
    May as well just cut a female Whitworth thread

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAUL REVERE View Post
    Really ??
    A 6 1/2 year old thread ??
    And his first post
    He spent alot of time reading to get to this one

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