.22 -243 long range with 175 gr. bullet?
A while back there was a picture of a 22-243 with a 175 grain bullet with a BC of close to 800 that was used for long range shooting out to 1,500 yards. They even said who made the bullets.
Does anyone remember it and could you post it and the picture.
Ticks me off because I deleted the picture from my deak top last week.
If I am mistaken let me know. I do think that my memory isn't that bad yet. I hope.
Last edited by gt40; 02-21-2008 at 02:55 PM.
Somthing doesn't add up here. A 22-243 would not use a 175gn bullet. 75gn perhaps.
There was a picture of the loaded case and the projectile looked like might be 1 1/2" long. The throut in the barrel was especially long to accomidate such a long bullet.
Could it have been this?? 226 Barnes QT. QT means quick twist. Bullet is 125 grains. Barrel has a 5 1/2 twist. Made from a 257 Roberts Impr case.
I don't remember posting the photo here, or any of the other stuff you mentioned. It must have been somebody else although I don't know any other collector who has one.
There were several other QT calibers & cartridges. Some were loaded with bore-rider type bullets.
Last edited by Cheechako; 02-21-2008 at 03:06 PM.
Ray, can you even get Barnes QT bullets anymore? I haven't seen one of them in 30 years!!
Originally Posted by Cheechako
My question has always been why the QT series?
The QTs were from the Fred N. Barnes era back when he was making bullets from copper tubing in Colorado. When was that? The 1940s and 50s ? I don't know if Fred is still alive. Isn't the current line of Barnes' bullets descended from his business?
If I remember, Fred was into extremely long range big game shooting. The 226 QT pushed that 125 gr bullet at 2800 fps +/-. The 6.5 QT used a 200 gr bullet at the same velocity, I think. Both were loaded with .50 BMG powder. The 257 Condor was very similar but was not one of Barnes' creations. I think Norma even made factory Condor ammunition but it is now a collectors item and rarely seen.
Some of those ballistics don't seem too much by today's standards but back then they were considered revolutionary.
Here's a 257 Condor.
Last edited by Cheechako; 02-21-2008 at 03:38 PM.
Thanks Ray. I have a book (the PO Ackley set-I think) that has the entire QT series in it. Its just that I have always wondered "why"?
Originally Posted by Cheechako
The info I read before probably was inaccurate which "rarely" haha happens on the internet. I shouldn't have thought it was gospel.
Oh, I never new that the 257 Roberts was a "belted" case like in the picture.
If anyone else has any info feel free to add it here.
"Aim small miss small",
PS: I think I am seeing double ?????? You'al put two different photos here. The unbelted one is the one I had on my desk top.
Last edited by gt40; 02-21-2008 at 05:40 PM.
Didn't someone make heavy bullets out of tungsten powder..
Last edited by Hal; 02-22-2008 at 05:09 PM.
The only bullet that comes quickly to my mind with a tungsten core available today is Barnes MRX with Silvex-tungsten core.
GT40, I also would have loved to see a photo of the 22/243 with the 175 grain bullet, and learn the configuration of the rifle, and the velocities it produced.
A 175 grain .224 bullet is an interesting concept, on the basis of trying to get a bullet with an incredibly high BC. However, once you start analysing the components required, you realise it is impractical in the extreme.
The length of a 175 grain .224 bullet with a 10 caliber ogive or greater would have to be way over 1.750 inches, and possibly up near 1.900 if using a conventional lead core/copper jacket bullet design. My basis for this is:
70 grain Berger VLD - .948 inches length
90 grain JLK VLD - 1.230 inches "
100 grain Wildcat ULD - 1.300 inches "
107 grain Wildcat ULD - 1.350 inches "
From those figures there is a .402 inch increase in length from a 70 grain VLD to a 107 grain ULD, and another similar increase in bullet weight to 144 grains would give a length of 1.752 inches. So a 175 grain bullet would be much longer than that, especially if you use the 142 and 156 grain ULD's 257 cal bullets as a further guide.
In 257 caliber
142 grain Wildcat ULD - 1.360 inches
156 grain Wildcat ULD - 1.550 "
On that basis, a 175 grain .257 cal ULD with similar profile would be 1.730 inches in length.
It is interesting to note that the length of a .224 107 grain Wildcat ULD (1.350 in) and a .257 142 grain Wildcat ULD (1.360 in) are almost identical.
To get sufficient length to create a 175 grain .224 bullet, you would probably have to draw down a 7mm jacket that is used to make a 160 grain bullet.
I am currently using a .224 Clark (22/257 Roberts imp/30 deg) which has a case capacity of about 63.8 grains, and with a Krieger 26 inch 6.5 twist barrel, and using 56.0/H870, it achieves 3,200 fps with the Little 100 grain soldered core HPBT.(1.260) I have discovered that a 7 twist would have been sufficient to stabilise the Wildcat 100 grain .224 bullet.
I am also currently using a .257W with a Krieger 26 inch 7.0 twist barrel and using 70.0/H50BMG it achieves 2,900 fps with the Wildcat 156 grain ULD. A 1 in 6 or 5.5 twist would probably be needed to stabilise a 175 grain 257 cal ULD.
On the basis of my experience with the above, I am guessing that a 1 in 4 twist (maybe less) .224 barrel would be needed to stabilise a 175 grain bullet.
It would have to be a stout bullet, as just 2400 fps would produce 432,000 rpm in a 4 twist barrel, and 576,000 rpm in a 3 twist barrel. However, a 22/243 (case capacity about 51- 52 grains) would probably struggle to achieve 2400 fps with a 175 grain bullet.
Another practical problem when using the 175 grain bullet, would be finding a powder with a burning rate that would be give an acceptable loading density.
I estimate that in my .224 Clark which holds about 60.0/H870 to the base of the neck, I would be using about 40.0/H870 to achieve max pressure with the 175 grain bullet. This would represent a loading density of about 67.0 - 75% depending on how the barrel was throated.
A 22/243 would probably only be using about 33 grains of H870 with a 175 grain bullet at max pressure.
Although I have been wildcatting with various cartridges for about 40 years, the concept of a 22/243 with the 175 grain bullet is even way to radical and impractical for me, and I am content to sit back and watch someone else do all the development work. Brian.