New to reloading for rifle.

[Slug Chucker]

Hi All,
I’m new to both centre fire and centre fire reloading. I’m looking for a few pointers.

The rifle
Savage model 10 FLP Left Handed
24” barrel with a 1:9 twist
Rifle Basix SAV-2 trigger.
Ken Farrell G Force matched 30mm rings and base.
Millet tactical 4-16X scope BK81001
ASE Ultra CQB .223 suppressor
Choate left handed varmint stock
Pic of my rifle:
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...cker/10FLP.jpg
Consumables available to me:
Case:
Lapua brass
Heads:
Hornady 75 Grain Amax
Hornady 60 Grain Vmax
Hornady 55 Grain Vmax
Hornady 55 Grain SPSX
Powders on Hand:
Hodgdon H4895
Hodgdon H335
Varget
VihtaVuori N135
Primers:
Winchester WSR

I’m looking for some good powerful accurate loads with the above combinations that won’t batter my cases with over pressure.
My current loads are:
Hornady 75 Grain Amax, 23.5 Grains of Varget, crony speed 2638 fps, SD 22.53 fps Groups within .5” at 100 yards
Hornady 60 Grain Vmax 25 Grains of H4895, crony speed 3052 fps, SD 16.23 fps
Groups within .5” at 100 yards, sometimes better if I do my part.

I’m particularly interested in developing the Amax loads as I feel they could a hell of a lot better than the current standard deviation I’m achieving.
Any suggestions, these loads are being developed for red fox shooting at long range.
Thanks,
Slug Chucker.

[Charles E]

My first thought is you're in the wrong forum; you'll likely get more & better responses on the Factory/hybrid forum.

My second though is, do they really give trophies for lowest SD in Ireland?

But assuming you're shooting targets for score, I believe you can get Berger bullets in the UK -- Give the 64-grain match bullet a try. It may well outshoot everything else you've mentioned using a 9-twist Savage. H4895 is probably the preferred powder with that bullet, but as always, different barrels --especially factory barrels -- like different combinations.

[caroby]

Hornady 60 Grain Vmax 25 Grains of H4895, crony speed 3052 fps, SD 16.23 fps
Groups within .5” at 100 yards, sometimes better if I do my part.
S Chucker,

Don't worry about SD/ES too much... Heck, one of my most favorite and possibly best agging Benchrest barrel shoots 1's at a SD in the 15 -20fps range.....
The above load with the 60gr V-max is excellent and you said it your self,
"sometimes better if I do my part"....

Rather than a chrony, bring your loading equiptment to the range AND wind flags! Now you will quite possibly shoot REAL little....JMOP.
cale

[Slug Chucker]

Thanks Lads,
I appreciate the advice and I will move over to the factory/hybrid side of the forum. I do shoot .22LR benchrest but I never quiet got the hang of it. I have some reasonable gear for doing it but I find I enjoy and shoot prone better.

Charles,
I’m not quiet sure what you mean by “My second though is, do they really give trophies for lowest SD in Ireland?” could you clarify this remark. My current perception is that you’re possibly being snooty towards me.

Thanks,
Slug Chucker

[Charles E]

Charles,
I’m not quiet sure what you mean by “My second though is, do they really give trophies for lowest SD in Ireland?” could you clarify this remark. My current perception is that you’re possibly being snooty towards me.

Not snooty, but I've found on this & even more on other websites that a lot of old wives tales get passed on as wisdom. You particularly see this notion about low ES/SD in long range shooting, because you can "prove" it matters with a ballistics program.

But think it through. Tuning a load is in large part finding a load that compensates for velocity variation.

It often helps people to keep their eye on the goal, and not worry over much about details that don't matter. How do you know if they matter? If you can't see the result of something on the target (and the score/group on the target is all that matters), you are chasing something unimportant.

There are a lot of old wives tales in shooting, and some newer ones, to boot. It is hard to tell what is myth and what is fact; ultimately -- in competitive pursuits -- you have to go back to what trophies are awarded for.

[jo191145]

Charles E recommended the 64gn Berger. My Sav 1:9 shot just ho hum with the average fare, 52's 55's 69's.
The 60gn Berger .008 into the lands really cheered that gun up. Haven't tried the 64's yet.
Good Luck

[Charles E]

My Sav 1:9 shot just ho hum with the average fare, 52's 55's 69's. The 60gn Berger .008 into the lands really cheered that gun up. Haven't tried the 64's yet.
Good Luck

Jo -- it turns out there are two Berger 60-grain bullets.

One is called a "varmint," it has a .082 meplat, and is .325 from the base to the beginning of the ogive.

The other is called "target & varmint" (i.e., match) and has a .055 meplat, and is .275 from the base to the ogive.

Both are 7.5-caliber tangent ogives.

The 64-grain bullet is like the 60-grain target & varmint, with .055 meplat, but is .289 from the base to the beginning of the ogive.

The reason I mention this is I doubt you'd see much difference between the 60-grain match & the 64-grain match, but you might well between the 60-grain "varmint" & the 64-grain match.

My Savage is from the early 1990s, and I don't know if they changed the chamber dimensions in later years. Plus, I fell for the "firelapping" craze when it first came out. After firelapping, my Savage didn't shoot any better or worse. It may clean a little easier; hard to say. But for sure it pushed the throat out .060. When I seat the 64-grain .015 off the lands, there isn't much bullet in the neck. I went with the 64-grain bullet to get the smaller meplat & still have as much bullet as possible (about .100") in the case neck.

So, If your Savage is for any reason like mine, and you're using the 60-grain "varmint" (.325 base to ogive), you may find the 64-grain worse, esp. if you try to jam it .010 or so.

I may try the 60-grain varmint -- the bigger meplat won't hurt at 100 yards, & not much at 200. In passing, I use to use 66-grain Fowler's in my PPC, and even at 300 yards it would group as well as the small meplat, 8.5-ogive bullets.

Another interesting Berger is the 70-grain "Target & Varmint" -- it is a boattail with a 12-caliber ogive and a .046 meplat. The boattail is .180, leaving a bearing surface of .317 , and it will easily stabilize in a 9-twist barrel. If I were to shoot the Savage in a 300 yard match, I would give it a try, though I'd just as soon skip long boattail bullets when I can. While this bullets has better "paper" specifications, the only way to know is to test. This for shooting Factory Class in a score match.

As a point of reference, I often shoot a 187-grain flatbase .30 caliber (BIBs bullets) at 1,000 yards, and we've also had pretty good success with a 140-grain 6.5 flatbase (Clinch River) at 1,000 yards. These are custom bullets, and for shooting groups rather than score; score is a slightly different game. But the point is that very good bullets shoot better than not-so-good bullets, even when they are at a theoretical disadvantage.

The Berger data sheet I have is dated 2/23/06; created by Eric Stecker of Berger Bullets.

[jo191145]

Slug Chucker

Have you simply tried upping your charge of Varget behind that 75gn A-Max? It seems to be one of the most universally liked powders in 223. Judging by the data you should easily be able to go higher. The H-4895 should work well too. I do not use my 223 tube much as I prefer the 204 and have a bit more expierience in making them shoot.

I recently began developing lodes for my rifles using Viht powders. I seem to find the same thing many BR shooters find. Viht likes a hard start. IE tighter neck tension or a good jam into the lands or both. While N-135 may not be an optimum Viht powder for the heavy slugs it just might work well seeing as your not overly concerned with hyper velocity.

Have you ever tried an Audette Ladder Test? I find them a most helpful reloading tool.

Charles E
A most interesting and informative post. I usually try to save one pill from anything I like. It seems my 60gn is a Match bullet. The meplat measures .042 as close as my eyes can make out My base to ogive doesn't work out with your figures but I'm using a Hornady comparator insert which will not give a true ogive reading.
While searching through my box of 223 components I came across a box of Berger 62gn match and two boxes of the 70gn VLD Match bullets. Never even opened until now. Its winter, I think its time to screw that 223 tube back on and try some Viht in it Thanks guys.

Charles may I inquire as to what type of firelapping kit you used. I've used the Midway kit on a 308 Win cheesegrater and I moved the throat forward .100
Didn't stop it from grating cheese either. Luckily I didn't go with the full recommendation of abrasive rounds or I might have made a .410 out of it. The 208 A-Maxs fit just nice now
I was wondering if the Tony Boyer kit performs as stated. Just wondering, I'll have to be pretty desperate to shoot anymore abrasives down a barrel.

I also appreciate your mention of the 140 FB Clinch River. I must have missed that on the 6BR.com 6.5x284 info page. Just recently read an article somewhere claiming boat tails are essentially ineffective until after going subsonic. Also claimed BT's allowed the gases to sneak around the bullet easier causing more copper fouling and more disturbed air/gases in front of the bullet.
I'm not educated enough to argue it one way or the other but I'd like to try them. Thanks

Doh! When I measured the meplat on the 60gn Berger I tried to measure the i.d. of the hollow point. After some sleep I realized I needed to be measuring the o.d. Right at .055 as Charles said.

[gt40]

Charles E.

[QUOTE=Charles E;373155]My first thought is you're in the wrong forum; you'll likely get more & better responses on the Factory/hybrid forum.


Unless I am mistaken doesn't it say Factory/Hybrid Rifles at the top of this page?

"Aim small miss small",

gt40

[Slug Chucker]

Jo -- it turns out there are two Berger 60-grain bullets.

One is called a "varmint," it has a .082 meplat, and is .325 from the base to the beginning of the ogive.

The other is called "target & varmint" (i.e., match) and has a .055 meplat, and is .275 from the base to the ogive.

Both are 7.5-caliber tangent ogives.

The 64-grain bullet is like the 60-grain target & varmint, with .055 meplat, but is .289 from the base to the beginning of the ogive.

The reason I mention this is I doubt you'd see much difference between the 60-grain match & the 64-grain match, but you might well between the 60-grain "varmint" & the 64-grain match.

My Savage is from the early 1990s, and I don't know if they changed the chamber dimensions in later years. Plus, I fell for the "firelapping" craze when it first came out. After firelapping, my Savage didn't shoot any better or worse. It may clean a little easier; hard to say. But for sure it pushed the throat out .060. When I seat the 64-grain .015 off the lands, there isn't much bullet in the neck. I went with the 64-grain bullet to get the smaller meplat & still have as much bullet as possible (about .100") in the case neck.

So, If your Savage is for any reason like mine, and you're using the 60-grain "varmint" (.325 base to ogive), you may find the 64-grain worse, esp. if you try to jam it .010 or so.

I may try the 60-grain varmint -- the bigger meplat won't hurt at 100 yards, & not much at 200. In passing, I use to use 66-grain Fowler's in my PPC, and even at 300 yards it would group as well as the small meplat, 8.5-ogive bullets.

Another interesting Berger is the 70-grain "Target & Varmint" -- it is a boattail with a 12-caliber ogive and a .046 meplat. The boattail is .180, leaving a bearing surface of .317 , and it will easily stabilize in a 9-twist barrel. If I were to shoot the Savage in a 300 yard match, I would give it a try, though I'd just as soon skip long boattail bullets when I can. While this bullets has better "paper" specifications, the only way to know is to test. This for shooting Factory Class in a score match.

As a point of reference, I often shoot a 187-grain flatbase .30 caliber (BIBs bullets) at 1,000 yards, and we've also had pretty good success with a 140-grain 6.5 flatbase (Clinch River) at 1,000 yards. These are custom bullets, and for shooting groups rather than score; score is a slightly different game. But the point is that very good bullets shoot better than not-so-good bullets, even when they are at a theoretical disadvantage.

The Berger data sheet I have is dated 2/23/06; created by Eric Stecker of Berger Bullets.

Hi Charles,
LOL , You wondered why I went into the benchrest forum first!
You see the answer is above, you guys really know your stuff.
My apologies for the defensive response earlier, I've been chatting on shooting forums for years and have found sometimes people taking a poke just because I'm Irish, backward Paddy kind of stuff. I can clearly see now that was not your intention.
I will pay less attention to the SD in future and more to the end results up range.
Cheers.
Slug Chucker

Gt40,
Charles or another moderator moved the thread over to the Factory/ Hybrid. I originally posted in the centrefire benchrest section.
Cheers,
Slug Chucker.

[Charles E]

Slug -- I'm Norwegian -- I probably have relatives in Ireland. Of course that move was about 1,000 years ago ;-)

Jo -- I didn't move the post. About all I do as a moderator is remove posts that have a virus, or a link to a virus in them, and occasionally, a post where someone is trashing a manufacturer & just won't stop. Wilbur & Elmer make the decisions on when to move a post.

Firelapping -- I used the NECO kit. I'll never use a kit again, and I only have one factory rifle (the Savage .223), but if I ever get the notion to lap in the future, I'll bit the bullet (so to speak) & learn how to lap by hand, with a lead lap.

Flatbase bullets. You need to remember that I'm a group shooter, primarily 1,000 yards. A highpower shooter will have different needs. They shoot at (about) a 2-MOA 10-ring, that's 20 inches at 1,000 yards. They shoot one shot, the target is pulled, marked, then run back up, (and scored), then the shooter can shoot again. His/her goal is to shoot all 10s, with as many X's as possible. A benchrest shooter can shoot 5 shots as fast as they can -- the target is never pulled, and 20 seconds for all five rounds isn't that uncommon. Now, in 20 seconds, you can fairly often count on the wind not to change too much. To have a chance of wining, you need to shoot around a 6-inch group at 1,000 yards. But it doesn't have to be in the center. If you think about the problem from a wind-drift point of view, having the same drift in a reasonably constant wind is important to a group shooter. The relatively constant wind comes about because you can shoot fast. For a highpower shooter, having the smallest drift possible is more important -- they just can't count on a constant wind, since they have to shoot so slowly.

Boattails: actually, the boattail does help with ballistic coefficient above the transonic region, just not as much. I use to think as you, but it's not quite that simple. The plus of a boattail (less drift) is offset by the compromise that it is harder to make an absolutely consistent boattail (esp. a VLD) bullet. My shooting buddy Joel Pendergraft won about half the matches at Hawks Ridge one year shooting the 187-grain BIBs; you can bet he was shooting against all sorts of high-BC bullets (the 187 BIBs have a BC about .520). But the VARIATION in ballistic coefficient with these is tiny, unlike the many bullets, esp. the VLDs. Remember, this is for benchrest.

Hope that answers everything