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Thread: dazed and confused

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
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    861
    Quote Originally Posted by afrench View Post
    Is your bolt face flat and square?
    hi a

    to the best of my knowledge, yes a near new borden brmxd

  2. #17
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    Feb 2003
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    Lower Dakota Territory
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    I agree, Mike. Buying dies....hoping they'll work...w/o identifying the area(s) on the case that are causing the issues, seems a little "bass-ackwards" as my Dad would say. If in fact it's a brass issue at all.

    I assume the ejector was checked to make sure it's not the cause as a first step.

    Good insight as always, Mike.

  3. #18
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    Oct 2019
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    861
    not exactly.
    there are several of us that shoot the same basic setup.
    300 wsm adg brass vapor trail bullets. and we talk a little. the last comment was a guy having sizing issues and the most senior of the shooters, who had gone with a custom die that did not work, said the micron die was the way to go, so that is what i bought.
    as far as not knowing the issue, well i agree, i did not stop and check each point, but simply turned the die down till the bolt closed with no effort.
    at this point, when i have fired some more rounds i will measure as i go.
    like i said, i have never had the issue before and have over a dozen custom reamers.

    alinwa will love this, it is his favorite subject

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Nyhus View Post
    I agree, Mike. Buying dies....hoping they'll work...w/o identifying the area(s) on the case that are causing the issues, seems a little "bass-ackwards" as my Dad would say. If in fact it's a brass issue at all.

    I assume the ejector was checked to make sure it's not the cause as a first step.

    Good insight as always, Mike.

  4. #19
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    Apr 2006
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    Kentucky-Home of the Kentucky Wildcats
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    2,502
    Quote Originally Posted by rsmithsr View Post
    not exactly.
    there are several of us that shoot the same basic setup.
    300 wsm adg brass vapor trail bullets. and we talk a little. the last comment was a guy having sizing issues and the most senior of the shooters, who had gone with a custom die that did not work, said the micron die was the way to go, so that is what i bought.
    as far as not knowing the issue, well i agree, i did not stop and check each point, but simply turned the die down till the bolt closed with no effort.
    at this point, when i have fired some more rounds i will measure as i go.
    like i said, i have never had the issue before and have over a dozen custom reamers.

    alinwa will love this, it is his favorite subject
    Well, I'm only going to say that buying something because it's what someone else uses, with likely a different chamber, is worth just that...and that if you don't know where and why the problem is presenting itself, it's a matter of measuring... and we're just not on the same page yet. At least not until you come up to speed with some things pertinent to having an informed discussion on this subject. Frankly, that's why I backed up and asked for how much(a precise number) you were bumping the shoulders back..to establish what you knew to be fact vs the vague answer you gave to my question.

    Tight closure is almost never to do with brass or pressure, but a sizing problem. End quote.
    You present this as being a certain brass issue so I wanted to get to the basics to start fresh. You can listen or you can tell me how wrong I am, while you search for an answer to your QUESTION...your call. Just don't look for much help going forward if that's what I get for helping.

    If the brass came out of your chamber ok after firing, you VERY likely induced the problem while sizing. Again, that's why I asked for a precise actual measurement. If you are truly bumping .001-.002, there should be nothing but air and opportunity between the case and chamber. Diametrically, unless it was way overpressured and/or the die not small enough, by quite a bit, you'd never feel any perceptable resistance to CLOSING the bolt. It could be off a good bit and still not produce much or any feel at that point of bolt closure. That's where good measurements might come into play as well as just plain ol getting it across to me just how much "feel" it has when closing. We'll get to the math on that later if need be, but I'm pretty sure it won't be necessary because I doubt it's the problem at all.

    I've been around this game for 25 years, building rifles that have won multiple national championships. I'm not as dumb as you might think but nevertheless, the offer to help was free. Rejecting it or acting like I don't know or can't help...well, that's free too but I have a memory like an elephant when it comes to helping again.

    Your question, at least on the surface, appears to be pretty basic and it should be pretty simple to narrow down to a definitive answer. When all else fails, a simple trick with a magic marker or dykem(showing my age) will show where the interference is coming from.

    My initial and mostly uninformed(at this point) guess is you aren't really getting as much bump as you think, at least where it matters. Someimes this can be from die design and most certainly, die setup. Just trying to eliminate the simple things first. But as a rule...fired brass, even unsized brass, won't cause BOLT CLOSURE problems until it has a few firings on it or over pressure loads. After sizing, it should of course, always chamber easily IF the shoulder and possibly the neck/shoulder junction are being pushed back as they should be. The brass gets longer before getting bumped back during the sizing operation. Again, I doubt it's a brass problem, since most of them did chamber easily. I do suspect an error somewhere else. It's likely in measuring(due to common tools and methods) or that it's not all being bumped equally. If you're getting .002, that should be enough to account for most any brass variance, though. If some has been fired more times or with hotter loads, that can explain what might appear to be a brass variance, too. Again, just trying to help and to do that, we really need to make sure that all the "simple" things get ruled out first. KISS it before over thinking it, it always good logic. Most issues like this are found to be something overlooked or assumed. If that's not helpful, you won't hear from me again about it.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
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    861
    do not run away..i listen to what you say.
    it is such a new problem that i am really confused.
    like i said when i fire some more, i will measure as i go...
    all on hold for a while

  6. #21
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    Mar 2020
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    Third Tomb of Chritianity
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    Having a brl chambered to SAAMI min (if any SAAMI for that caliber) or below SAAMI min to get the "ultra match" sooooooo fashion label, then running standard dimensions (and standard tolerances) sizing dies is a true call for problems.

    If your caliber is some kind of extremely wild wildcat, it's even calling for more issues because of the lack of a true standard, making people grind/cut "approximatively" the same thing.

    To explain my point a little further, I know a super match grade space AR15 with small chamber even refusing some 223 ammo straight from well known factories, depending on the batch, with owner yelling everywhere that ammo being " go " into his Wilson chamber gage, it SHALL chamber in his gun BECAUSE the Wilson gage is ZE 223 TRUTH.

    You understand of course that the Wilson chamber gage is NOTHING close to his AR chamber.


    That said, back to your issue ...


    Should the issue be "bolt click" aka difficult primary extraction, I would emphasize on GreyFox recommendation here above. A 7/8" - 14 ring die machined with a 10% conical reamer, lanolin and a ram allowing to push the entire brass all through the ring will be a fine and inexpensive way to go.

    Remember, industrial reamers all have a strong bevel or a rounded edge at their working base, so you may not size enough at the required area. Remember this PPC tool with changeable sizing rings at the base of the sizer ? Dead on, but way more expensive, and a questionmark about sizer axis and base ring axis coincidence. No axis question with the ring die.

    If it's a general sizing issue, I draw it BIG for explaination purpose, aka sizing dies to big for chamber, send 2-3 times fired brass to PTG and they will grind the right sizer reamer for you. I do trust them for that.

    On my own, I do prefer cut arbor press neck sizer and seater with chamber finisher reamer and go for the ring die for sizing my brass just above the extractor groove when needed. I shoulder bump with shims and a "too short" 7/8-14 dummy chamber cut with you know what.

    To go back to the begining of it all, should your vapor trail be a non standardized wild wildcat, I, personnaly, would go with MY OWN chamber finish reamer, have the barrel rechambered, cut the arbor press tools and dummy chamber with MY REAMER and cut a ring die. The ram is easy to make with a case cut and some steel rod.

    Hope this help.
    Olive.
    Last edited by OliveOil; 10-02-2022 at 06:07 AM. Reason: typo

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    861
    MAYBE YOUI SHOULD READ ALL BEFORE POSTING.
    you have lots of misinformation in your post..not what i said at all.

    min spec 300 wsm neck turned load throat...is not a wildcat
    vapor trail is a well know BULLET MAKER in lr br and prs.
    this is not an ar.

    Quote Originally Posted by OliveOil View Post
    Having a brl chambered to SAAMI min (if any SAAMI for that caliber) or below SAAMI min to get the "ultra match" sooooooo fashion label, then running standard dimensions (and standard tolerances) sizing dies is a true call for problems.

    If your caliber is some kind of extremely wild wildcat, it's even calling for more issues because of the lack of a true standard, making people grind/cut "approximatively" the same thing.

    To explain my point a little further, I know a super match grade space AR15 with small chamber even refusing some 223 ammo straight from well known factories, depending on the batch, with owner yelling everywhere that ammo being " go " into his Wilson chamber gage, it SHALL chamber in his gun BECAUSE the Wilson gage is ZE 223 TRUTH.

    You understand of course that the Wilson chamber gage is NOTHING close to his AR chamber.


    That said, back to your issue ...


    Should the issue be "bolt click" aka difficult primary extraction, I would emphasize on GreyFox recommendation here above. A 7/8" - 14 ring die machined with a 10% conical reamer, lanolin and a ram allowing to push the entire brass all through the ring will be a fine and inexpensive way to go.

    Remember, industrial reamers all have a strong bevel or a rounded edge at their working base, so you may not size enough at the required area. Remember this PPC tool with changeable sizing rings at the base of the sizer ? Dead on, but way more expensive, and a questionmark about sizer axis and base ring axis coincidence. No axis question with the ring die.

    If it's a general sizing issue, I draw it BIG for explaination purpose, aka sizing dies to big for chamber, send 2-3 times fired brass to PTG and they will grind the right sizer reamer for you. I do trust them for that.

    On my own, I do prefer cut arbor press neck sizer and seater with chamber finisher reamer and go for the ring die for sizing my brass just above the extractor groove when needed. I shoulder bump with shims and a "too short" 7/8-14 dummy chamber cut with you know what.

    To go back to the begining of it all, should your vapor trail be a non standardized wild wildcat, I, personnaly, would go with MY OWN chamber finish reamer, have the barrel rechambered, cut the arbor press tools and dummy chamber with MY REAMER and cut a ring die. The ram is easy to make with a case cut and some steel rod.

    Hope this help.
    Olive.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Third Tomb of Chritianity
    Posts
    110
    Quote Originally Posted by rsmithsr View Post
    MAYBE YOUI SHOULD READ ALL BEFORE POSTING.
    you have lots of misinformation in your post..not what i said at all.

    min spec 300 wsm neck turned load throat...is not a wildcat
    vapor trail is a well know BULLET MAKER in lr br and prs.
    this is not an ar.
    Make no worry, I read it twice and entirely.
    Have a nice problem solving.

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