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Thread: How to Stop Tails from getting Tangled

  1. #1
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    How to Stop Tails from getting Tangled

    I'm using Smiley wind flags. My flag tails are getting tangled around the shaft or in the daisy itself more frequently than I would like. Any suggestions on what I can do to minimize the problem? Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Schultz View Post
    I'm using Smiley wind flags. My flag tails are getting tangled around the shaft or in the daisy itself more frequently than I would like. Any suggestions on what I can do to minimize the problem? Thanks!

    Shoot indoors??????

    Cut them off?????

  3. #3
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    Get heavier sail tail material from someone such as David Halblom. Flying fish fundamentals.

  4. #4
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    Make sure the flags are in BALANCE and they turn VERY smoothly with know drag on the pivot pin or bearing.
    Balance of the flags is very important. The flag should turn almost as fast as the tails. Also keep the poles straight if you have to get your self a level of some type to aid in setting the poles straight. Watch the tails the flags should start turning just seconds after the tails start changing directions, if not, out of balance or not freely on the pivot/bearing.

    Chet
    Last edited by coyotechet; 08-18-2020 at 05:41 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by p1zombiekiller View Post
    shoot indoors??????

    Cut them off?????
    p use survery ribbopnm bill but a small nut tied on the end dont use sails tails they float dont give right diotrection bill b

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillBrawand View Post
    p use survery ribbopnm bill but a small nut tied on the end dont use sails tails they float dont give right diotrection bill b

    ribbopnm qith a nut?

  7. #7
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    Tangled tails

    Kyle, were you shooting close to a berm or a range with a stand of trees next to it? I've had it happen a few times in these situations when you had some strange wind currents that would actually have the tails stand straight up and the flag spin in circles... I have a set of shorter heaver tails for times when I foresee this happening, like at the left side of the range in Denton with a left to right wind.

    Thanks
    Scott

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by hayscott View Post
    Kyle, were you shooting close to a berm or a range with a stand of trees next to it? I've had it happen a few times in these situations when you had some strange wind currents that would actually have the tails stand straight up and the flag spin in circles... I have a set of shorter heaver tails for times when I foresee this happening, like at the left side of the range in Denton with a left to right wind.

    Thanks
    Scott
    Scott:

    Your insight is dead nuts on. At my home range, we have 20'-high concrete panels on both sides of the 100-yard bay to isolate it from adjacent bays. I was on the far end yesterday near one of the panels and having absolute hell with the tails.

    These tails are the original ones I got from Smiley. I initially was using some surveyor's tape I bought that seemed to be a little lighter than the Smiley tails and recently switched to the Smiley's hoping to minimize the tangling. My flags are balanced and set plumb. If the problem persists, I'll try trimming an inch or two off the Smiley tails. Thanks!

  9. #9
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    I'm in the minority on this but a balanced flag might not work as well as one being a bit tail heavy. It's not about the balance but rather the relationship of area one side to the other. There's one thing you can do to test this...move the pivot away from the tail and try it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbur View Post
    I'm in the minority on this but a balanced flag might not work as well as one being a bit tail heavy. It's not about the balance but rather the relationship of area one side to the other. There's one thing you can do to test this...move the pivot away from the tail and try it.

    I'll agree to that.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch Lambert View Post
    I'll agree to that.
    Me too!
    Static and dynamic balance are two different things, particularly so with a daisy flag.

    In simple terms,drag is what makes anything move in the wind. The area of the vane vs the area of the daisy, along with wind speed, are the biggest factors in dynamic balance. The center of pressure has to stay behind the pivot point or center of gravity..or the flag will beat back and forth, "looking" for balance, per se. As drag across the front of the flag increases, the center of pressure moves forward.
    Bottom line is this...a flag that's balanced perfectly in zero wind will not be in perfect balance in the real world, as drag becomes a growing factor as speed and drag increase. So yes, perfect balance is a moving target.

    A band-aid is more vane area but it also makes the flag more tail heavy than necessary. That brings us to a different type of drag...friction.

    A larger and heavier vane requires more weight up front to bring balance into reasonable proportion. Without it, we get side load at the pin to flag interface...friction. A larger pin has much more area and drag than a small pin. Ball bearings aren't the answer as most of the area of friction is along the side of the pin. Remember, we're chasing a moving target for perfect balance, so there is almost always a side load on the pin. With weight added, we just made the flag heavy and slow with mass and again...friction.


    Now to tails...They offer drag and stability to the flag without adding much weight compared to their area/drag. Sail tails have their pros and cons but IMHO, the pros outweigh the cons. They are slightly heavier than surveyor tape and they have more area than std surveyor tape. These two factors help stabilize the flag, with very little difference in weight. It will still be the first thing to move on most flag designs.

    The benefits are weight, area, drag and the fact that they should stay semi rigid, raising and lowering like a gauge needle. They don't typically max out nearly as soon as tape and they should remain linear.

    The downsides...Mainly storage, as they need to be cared for more than surveyor tape and stored in the tube that most come in, in order to maintain their shape that makes them stay rigid. Weight is both a pro and a con but is a small consideration, relatively.

    As to any tail wrapping around the pole. First, it's an indication that the tail moved before the flag. This can happen with virtually any flag but a lighter, more sensitive flag will be far less prone to this and the tail will have more influence over a lighter flag. This is a good thing. We all want the flag to move as close to real time as possible. Obviously, the lightest part, with the most drag..will move first. The extra weight, area and hence drag, will better "steer" the flag. So yes, the tail is a part of the function of the flag, similar to a kite tail but not the same.
    The problem is, there are times that the wind switches faster than the flag can respond or it can simply be caught in a swirl or updraft at times. That and the fact that most sail tails are knife cut rather than a hot knife, lets the edges fray, giving area of the tail that can get caught around a pole. Sometimes it'll fall free and sometimes not. I thing it the edges were sealed, it'd add too rigidity and lessen fraying. Both should make wrapping around the pole much less likely/frequent with any flag....but flag sensitivity is still gonna be a huge factor.

  12. #12
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by butch lambert View Post
    ribbopnm qith a nut?
    tioe one of butchs on

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    me too!
    Static and dynamic balance are two different things, particularly so with a daisy flag.

    In simple terms,drag is what makes anything move in the wind. The area of the vane vs the area of the daisy, along with wind speed, are the biggest factors in dynamic balance. The center of pressure has to stay behind the pivot point or center of gravity..or the flag will beat back and forth, "looking" for balance, per se. As drag across the front of the flag increases, the center of pressure moves forward.
    Bottom line is this...a flag that's balanced perfectly in zero wind will not be in perfect balance in the real world, as drag becomes a growing factor as speed and drag increase. So yes, perfect balance is a moving target.

    A band-aid is more vane area but it also makes the flag more tail heavy than necessary. That brings us to a different type of drag...friction.

    A larger and heavier vane requires more weight up front to bring balance into reasonable proportion. Without it, we get side load at the pin to flag interface...friction. A larger pin has much more area and drag than a small pin. Ball bearings aren't the answer as most of the area of friction is along the side of the pin. Remember, we're chasing a moving target for perfect balance, so there is almost always a side load on the pin. With weight added, we just made the flag heavy and slow with mass and again...friction.


    Now to tails...they offer drag and stability to the flag without adding much weight compared to their area/drag. Sail tails have their pros and cons but imho, the pros outweigh the cons. They are slightly heavier than surveyor tape and they have more area than std surveyor tape. These two factors help stabilize the flag, with very little difference in weight. It will still be the first thing to move on most flag designs.

    The benefits are weight, area, drag and the fact that they should stay semi rigid, raising and lowering like a gauge needle. They don't typically max out nearly as soon as tape and they should remain linear.

    The downsides...mainly storage, as they need to be cared for more than surveyor tape and stored in the tube that most come in, in order to maintain their shape that makes them stay rigid. Weight is both a pro and a con but is a small consideration, relatively.

    As to any tail wrapping around the pole. First, it's an indication that the tail moved before the flag. This can happen with virtually any flag but a lighter, more sensitive flag will be far less prone to this and the tail will have more influence over a lighter flag. This is a good thing. We all want the flag to move as close to real time as possible. Obviously, the lightest part, with the most drag..will move first. The extra weight, area and hence drag, will better "steer" the flag. So yes, the tail is a part of the function of the flag, similar to a kite tail but not the same.
    The problem is, there are times that the wind switches faster than the flag can respond or it can simply be caught in a swirl or updraft at times. That and the fact that most sail tails are knife cut rather than a hot knife, lets the edges fray, giving area of the tail that can get caught around a pole. Sometimes it'll fall free and sometimes not. I thing it the edges were sealed, it'd add too rigidity and lessen fraying. Both should make wrapping around the pole much less likely/frequent with any flag....but flag sensitivity is still gonna be a huge factor.
    the new tails are to stiff they float take a good look.
    Last edited by BillBrawand; 08-20-2020 at 01:09 PM.

  14. #14
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by billbrawand View Post
    the new tails are to stiff they float take a good look.
    shorten ribbon some

  15. #15
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    I always liked the Flying Fish sail tails...not as stiff as some. Another thing to look at is a yarn tail like these on my air foil flags:





    On a conventional flag like Wilbur made or my Hood doubles, I used both a sail tail and the yarn tail together and prefer just a skosh (Norsk/German for a tint bit) of rear bias.

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