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Thread: Need advice testing ammo.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
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    71

    Need advice testing ammo.

    I picked up a Billy Myers custom Anschutz 1913 rifle recently with a Shilen barrel and tuner. I bought 2 boxes each of 2 lots of Tenex and one lot of Match to try. Unfortunately all I have now to shoot off now is a wood bench that has some flex in the back but I'm working on getting a concrete bench set up.

    I've been shooting a box per target, usually just one shot per bull. I've not been impressed so far with any of these lots but I'm starting to think I should be shooting 5 shot groups so I can measure the group size and use that to compare lots, measuring individual bulls seems less objective.

    So do you guys use group size pick lots? What group size at 50 yards do you shoot for to be considered mildly competitive? I think I'm at about .75 moa groups with the better ammo. I'd like to get down to .5 moa groups but that may be ambitious for rimfire, I can get that with my 6br though.

    Also do you guys use a chrono to determine your ES/SD over the box or just go off group size?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Tennessee
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    6,529
    Are you using wind flags, and can you effectively read them?


    .

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Boothbay Harbor, ME
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    602
    Zane, are you using flags? I know a while back you were looking for some.
    Sounds like there could be something wrong with the bench if its flexing. Must be pretty piss poor unless you're leaning on it. Reinforce it until you come up with a better bench. Or look for a club that has decent benches & join. Otherwise you'll never get the results the equipment should be capable of.
    Back to you're question on groups, I don't shoot many groups testing ammo. 2 or 3 3 shot groups at most. Then I shoot for score on the 25 bulls, finish the box on the sighters & score the 50 shots.
    Some guys are shooting groups & using the On Target software to analyse the results. This would be the way to go imo if shooting groups. Much more accurate & non-biased. Also you can take the scored target & it will convert it into one large group. Pretty cool stuff, just not for me.
    The reason I do not shoot groups is I shoot outside with a fair amount of wind, & lately quite switchy conditions. If I went by groups I'd never buy any ammo, likely lose my mind, & take up disc golf of something!
    Shooting the single bulls allows us to see how far the bullets gets pushed, & the consistency of it. In a large group we lose sight of that imo.
    This past week I've tested 9 lots of Match & 5 lots of Midas + in 2 of my heavy guns. All in cooler & windier conditions than I'd like. All has shot ok/well making it difficult deciding which to buy more of.
    I think you should be seeing better from what I've seen in the lots I've tested.

    Keith

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    71
    Thanks for the tips. I'm liking the sounds of the On target app. I'll give it a try.

    And I agree this wood bench feels like a futile exercise. I was hoping I could make it work at least for testing but it's not looking good. I try to "pre load" the tail of the bench to reduce flex but it's just not smart. I would probably be better off shooting off the concrete floor F class style. I'm looking to build a concrete and steel bench if I can talk the range owner into letting me replace one of his wood benches.

    I've not invested in professional flags yet but hope to get some soon, had lots of bills lately. I have ordered some shepherd garden hooks that I'm going to use with some flagging tape and 6# fishing line to make some basic flags. Not ideal but better than nothing.

    Regarding the tuning of the rifle. I have not messed with the action bolt torque. This rifle appears to only have one action bolt and a previous owner kind of mangled the head, at some point I need to send to a gunsmith to properly replace the bolt. I'm hesitant to mess with the bolt in fear of further damaging the head.

    So does anyone use a chrono or just rely 100% on scores and/or group size.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    upstate, N.Y.
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    2,844
    You don't need to chrono, you don't need on target, you need Basic, skills, practice, and solid maintenance.
    One screw? That doesn't sound right.
    Do you have proper tools and the knowledge to clean the gun/barrel properly?
    You have a couple forums and search function.......use both to first make sure you have a gun capable of decent shooting. If you like groups, you don't need software to tell you what is good at this stage of the game.
    Half the internet experts that post groups have zero idea what the groups measure with or without software.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    71
    Yeah I was very surprised to see only one action screw, the trigger guard appears to be glued into the stock. It's possible I'm missing something but I see just one screw. Do they ever glue in rimfire actions or just centerfire actions. I would mess with the torque of the action screw but some numb nuts before me really did a number on it. My plan was to see if this barrel shoots that way if it needs a new barrel I can get that done in the same trip to the smith.

    I think I'm doing a good job cleaning. I bought a proper bore guide to use with my Tipton carbon fiber rod. Also got one of those jags with the O ring guide. Between lots I've been running several patches of C4 carbon remover, then a few strokes with a bronze brush then more patches of C4 and dry patches.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    upstate, N.Y.
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    2,844
    Use the C4 in the throat, you're not getting carbon down the barrel. Use rimfire blend & brush in the barrel.
    Bill did not glue actions that I ever heard but someone might have.
    Unscrew the Front screw and see if it moves....pull it out if nothing but to clean.
    New action screws are easy to replace from Anschutz USA. Get the socket head type. If it's not you need both, Go to rimfire central to get proper mm diameter to source locally but you'd have to trim them to proper length, trigger guard glued makes zero difference

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Manhattan & Sag Harbor, N.Y.
    Posts
    523
    I am fortunate to have access on off days to an indoor 100 yard CF rifle range. I am only buying 22 RF ammo through one source. I get the ammo inventory list and then get two boxes each of a number of brands and versions, but only those that have a significant back up of inventory of the same LOT number.

    I shoot groups in a no wind condition as I prefer not to have to move the rifle if at all possible and when I find one my rifles like to eat, I buy up a bunch of that lot number ammo.

    After doing this a few times, I at least now have narrowed the number of types of .22 ammo to test when and if I need more.

    Bob

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    47
    Quote Originally Posted by zanemoseley View Post
    Yeah I was very surprised to see only one action screw, the trigger guard appears to be glued into the stock. It's possible I'm missing something but I see just one screw. Do they ever glue in rimfire actions or just centerfire actions. I would mess with the torque of the action screw but some numb nuts before me really did a number on it. My plan was to see if this barrel shoots that way if it needs a new barrel I can get that done in the same trip to the smith.

    I think I'm doing a good job cleaning. I bought a proper bore guide to use with my Tipton carbon fiber rod. Also got one of those jags with the O ring guide. Between lots I've been running several patches of C4 carbon remover, then a few strokes with a bronze brush then more patches of C4 and dry patches.
    All 1913 (54 actions) have two action screws, one in the front of the trigger guard, and another in the front of the action. If the front screw head is messed up, there is the possibility that somebody tried to epoxy bed the action, or tried to glue it in, and the screw got epoxied in also. The second screw might be under the trigger guard.
    You may want to use a heat gun on the front screw, and also on the trigger guard, to softened the epoxy and see if you can remove them. Good luck.
    Evelio.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    71
    Quote Originally Posted by Evelio View Post
    All 1913 (54 actions) have two action screws, one in the front of the trigger guard, and another in the front of the action. If the front screw head is messed up, there is the possibility that somebody tried to epoxy bed the action, or tried to glue it in, and the screw got epoxied in also. The second screw might be under the trigger guard.
    You may want to use a heat gun on the front screw, and also on the trigger guard, to softened the epoxy and see if you can remove them. Good luck.
    Evelio.
    This 1913 has been totally customized. The receiver was sleeved with a thick machined aluminum sleeve, I believe the receiver is glued into the sleeve, I'm not even sure if the action screw goes into the original/factory tapped hole or if it goes directly into the sleeve. Its also a totally custom stock and trigger guard. If the bolt head wasn't jacked up I would be far more excited to mess with it.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    47
    Quote Originally Posted by zanemoseley View Post
    This 1913 has been totally customized. The receiver was sleeved with a thick machined aluminum sleeve, I believe the receiver is glued into the sleeve, I'm not even sure if the action screw goes into the original/factory tapped hole or if it goes directly into the sleeve. Its also a totally custom stock and trigger guard. If the bolt head wasn't jacked up I would be far more excited to mess with it.
    WOW, I have worked on hundreds of Anschutz match rifles, and have never seen one where the action have been sleeved, looks to me like you have one of a kind. Whoever owned that rifle before you went to the extreme to make it shoot. I am sure that Bill Myers did not do the extra work on the gun, also you mentioned about playing with the torque in the action screw to get it tuned, this being a complete benchrest set up, I would assume that it should have a muzzle tuner installed, and if not, it may have been removed prior to the sale. The only correct way to tune a benchrest rifle is with a tuner, assuming that this highly modified rifle is properly bedded, the torque on the action screw will not affect the tuning of the gun, you need a real tuner.
    I would love to see a picture of the rifle.
    Evelio.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    71
    Well it was advertised as being built by Bill Myers, why do you believe it wasn't? Here a pic of the rifle as well as the bottom and the chewed up bolt. It's got a tuner but I need to research the proper way to use it.






  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    47
    Quote Originally Posted by zanemoseley View Post
    Well it was advertised as being built by Bill Myers, why do you believe it wasn't? Here a pic of the rifle as well as the bottom and the chewed up bolt. It's got a tuner but I need to research the proper way to use it.





    Again, WOW & WOW that is a hell of a fantastic custom job. That action sleeve looks like a copy of the 2013 action but made to fit over the 1913 action. I did not meant to dispute the fact that it was build my Myers, I am thinking that he probably re-barreled the action, and did his magic to accuracy it, but I don't think he did the sleeve, which it does looks like it was build by a professional machinist, and looks fantastic, I don't know how much you paid for that rifle, but I can tell the original owner spend a bundle on that gun. From the looks of it, it should shoot fantastic.
    Yes the action screw is bad, looks like it got epoxy in after the action was bedded.
    Unless the barrel is damaged, that gun should shoot lights out, you need to play with the tuner, and good ammo. and should be able to get 0.100 groups at 50 yds.
    I don't want to hurt your feelings, but it looks like you are new to real benchrest competition knowledge. I think you have probably a good shooting gun, and again one of a kind.
    Before you decide to do anything yourself, please take it to a known gunsmith familiar with Anschutz rifle.
    Evelio.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    upstate, N.Y.
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    2,844
    I was told today, which I personally did not know, Billy sleeved several guns. Sure looks like a glue job.leave the screw alone, if glued, will have zero impact.
    Maybe it is a deceptive angle but that barrel looks short. Bill usually put his name on the barrell..

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    MD eastern shore
    Posts
    922
    Yes, Bill sleeved actions. I once watched him work on one in his shop, but probably not this one. Another thing; Bill was one of the best in his business when it came to adhesives. Through his "day job" he had access to some very sophisticated aero-space adhesives and knew their properties and applied that knowledge to br guns. I'm also in agreement with Tim. If he barreled this rifle the word Myers should be stamped somewhere near the action on the barrel, and visible without needing to remove the stock to see it. He has been gone for years and I still miss his company. bob

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