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Thread: Has anyone seen this?

  1. #31
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    Dec 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamieD View Post
    Hi Dan,
    You can call it BS if you want. I thought you would remember me, we actually talked quite a while ago.

    I always try to encourage people and companies who are trying to make our guns and industry better, not just dismiss or taint new things because they might endanger established ways of doing things and possibly bring change.

    That said, this is for real and make no mistake that it is coming like it or not. This is what we believe is going to be the next big step in helping to manufacture at scale very high quality rifles to the masses at prices most can afford. It is our goal anyway.

    Jamie Dodson
    Wolf Precision, Inc.
    www.wolfprecision.net
    Good for you. Don’t let ..... like Dan get you away from trying to find a better way. I appreciate innovators rather than the dirtbags that sit in their basement trying to find fault with everything new in the world (that’s you Dan)

  2. #32
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    Feb 2003
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    Houston, Texas
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    7,843
    Quote Originally Posted by hayscott View Post
    Explains why I can't shoot straight, thanks to these folks, I'm finding out that it's the first inch of a barrel that is the most accurate. All along I have been cutting off the first 3 or so inches before I even start a chamber...
    I can attest to that.

    In order to make weight on my LV, I have to keep the barrel weight, minus tuner, at about 78 ounces. I have always had to cut 2/3 of the straight from a Krieger Blank in order to make weight at 22 inches length.

    Little did I know
    Last edited by jackie schmidt; 04-02-2020 at 01:21 PM.

  3. #33
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    Feb 2003
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    Poetry, Tex.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    Good for you. Don’t let ..... like Dan get you away from trying to find a better way. I appreciate innovators rather than the dirtbags that sit in their basement trying to find fault with everything new in the world (that’s you Dan)

    Grow up feller, you are out of your environment.

  4. #34
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    Jan 2015
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    Greenwood, Ca
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    215
    Quote Originally Posted by JamieD View Post
    You are right the throat is the same length. But the first inch or two of the barrel is the straightest portion and we don't have a reamer following the lands and grooves several inches deep before cutting it. The reamer always follow the lands and grooves in one way or another and the deeper you go the more you get into this issue. It is not an absolute perfect solution, but a whole lot straighter and less chance of having non-repeatable results as each barrel can and is different like a fingerprint. So we just stay out of that area and only cut the throat in the straightest portion we have to work with.

    Jamie Dodson
    Wolf Precision, Inc.
    www.wolfprecision.net
    814-262-7994
    I don’t have the reamer following the lands/grooves for several inches either.

    And regarding the first inch or two of the barrel being the straightest, first, you are certainly in the lapping bell at that point, certainly not somewhere I’d want the throat/leade to be. I’ve see too often rifling remaining in the free bore section on short cases without first cutting an inch off the chamber end. Next, you’d have to convince me that if you cut an inch or two from anywhere in the barrel, that a ground pin a tenth under bore diameter wouldn’t drop through it. True, bores are not straight, but I personally feel they are far straighter than the internet makes them out to be. I did send back a barrel the other day that had .010”+ of runout 3” from the breech when the breech and muzzle were running true. That is an extreme case. I’d have to draw it out to see the worst case arc that represents, but I bet in reality, over an inch or two, it’s minimal.

    My reamers fully cut only the neck forward. They cut a minimal amount on there body and push the shoulder forward about .050”, because I machined those before the reamer is used.

    My opinion, there’s far less chance of error due to tolerance stacking by doing it in a single setup, with a single tool, on a single piece of material. Just my opinion.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    81

    Economy of Scale

    Quote Originally Posted by Rflshootr View Post
    Let's hear some thoughts on this..........

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za91...ature=emb_logo
    After watching the video and reading the comments Id say James has found a better way to make more accurate throats IN SCALE to larger number production barrels. Id do like the idea of changing the barrel material for longer life. I worked on die cast molds for a number of years that were subjected to extreme heat and cooling cycles. The heat checking we see in a barrel is that on a small scale. We could double throat life in our barrels if the material wasn't what it is now. Ease of machining is the opposite of long barrel life due to better steels like 19-9dl or H13 or even berrilyium nickel.
    The reason we can chamber to the Nth degree of throat accuracy is that we try and indicate the actual throat area to zero and then chamber. It sure doesn't lend itself to mass numbers. I just did 2 barrels in my lathe and they took 3 hrs each from start to finish. I rough out my chamber and then insert a .236 gage pin. The pin is indicated till it reads zero. I doubt that can be done to scale.

  6. #36
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    Feb 2003
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    Houston, Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon Prec. View Post
    I don’t have the reamer following the lands/grooves for several inches either.

    And regarding the first inch or two of the barrel being the straightest, first, you are certainly in the lapping bell at that point, certainly not somewhere I’d want the throat/leade to be. I’ve see too often rifling remaining in the free bore section on short cases without first cutting an inch off the chamber end. Next, you’d have to convince me that if you cut an inch or two from anywhere in the barrel, that a ground pin a tenth under bore diameter wouldn’t drop through it. True, bores are not straight, but I personally feel they are far straighter than the internet makes them out to be. I did send back a barrel the other day that had .010”+ of runout 3” from the breech when the breech and muzzle were running true. That is an extreme case. I’d have to draw it out to see the worst case arc that represents, but I bet in reality, over an inch or two, it’s minimal.

    My reamers fully cut only the neck forward. They cut a minimal amount on there body and push the shoulder forward about .050”, because I machined those before the reamer is used.

    My opinion, there’s far less chance of error due to tolerance stacking by doing it in a single setup, with a single tool, on a single piece of material. Just my opinion.
    Some years back, I took a Krieger unlimited barrel, put it between centers, and took a light cut to make it dead straight. I then scribed a straight line for it’s entire length. I then parted the barrel into 2 inch pieces.

    This allowed me to, using a small ball micrometer, to see the wall thickness of each piece in relation to that scribed line.

    I went to the trouble of doing this because we were in the same discussion concerning exactly how the out of trueness in the ID of a barrel was actually manefested. The people who were touting “clocking” barrels were saying that the bores were curved, and you had to compensate for that curve, and of course charge shooters for the service.

    I found spots that were almost dead true all the way around, other spots were showing as much as .004 to .005 difference in the wall thickness of the drops. That is as much as .010 total indicator run out. The main thing was those that had the most run out were in random spots in relation to that scribed line., almost like the deep hole drill took a turn at that spot but suddenly went back the other way in a spot just 3 or 4 inches down the barrel, then maybe the other way as it progressed further.

    In short, the out of trueness of the barrels ID in no way resembled a “curve”.

    I asked then exactly what these gunsmiths were “clocking”, nobody really gave a good answer, because that would get in the way of common sense.

    That is another reason it amazes me why the Krieger Representative kept talking about the “curve” on a barrel. They could easily do exactly the same thing I did.

    I posted all of the results on this Forum. I am sure some of the older members remember it. I have done a search, but cannot find the thread. It might have got lost in the crash a number of years ago when Wilbur had to clean things out.

    You all know me. I will go to extremes to Ascertain the truth when it comes to machine work. I have quite a few old unlimited barrels laying around. I just might do the same test again.
    Last edited by jackie schmidt; 04-02-2020 at 05:43 PM.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Branchville, NJ
    Posts
    514

    Old Idea with USG patents

    The separate chamber idea has been used for years on the M2HB machine gun barrels. The barrel has a separate chamber split just behind the neck roughly on the datum line. There is a rifled stellite liner with a tapered bore rifled steel barrel in front of it. This gives a long life barrel that is also accurate.

  8. #38
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    Dec 2017
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    Idaho
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie schmidt View Post
    Some years back, I took a Krieger unlimited barrel, put it between centers, and took a light cut to make it dead straight. I then scribed a straight line for it’s entire length. I then parted the barrel into 2 inch pieces.

    This allowed me to, using a small ball micrometer, to see the wall thickness of each piece in relation to that scribed line.

    I went to the trouble of doing this because we were in the same discussion concerning exactly how the out of trueness in the ID of a barrel was actually manefested. The people who were touting “clocking” barrels were saying that the bores were curved, and you had to compensate for that curve, and of course charge shooters for the service.

    I found spots that were almost dead true all the way around, other spots were showing as much as .004 to .005 difference in the wall thickness of the drops. That is as much as .010 total indicator run out. The main thing was those that had the most run out were in random spots in relation to that scribed line., almost like the deep hole drill took a turn at that spot but suddenly went back the other way in a spot just 3 or 4 inches down the barrel, then maybe the other way as it progressed further.

    In short, the out of trueness of the barrels ID in no way resembled a “curve”.

    I asked then exactly what these gunsmiths were “clocking”, nobody really gave a good answer, because that would get in the way of common sense.

    That is another reason it amazes me why the Krieger Representative kept talking about the “curve” on a barrel. They could easily do exactly the same thing I did.

    I posted all of the results on this Forum. I am sure some of the older members remember it. I have done a search, but cannot find the thread. It might have got lost in the crash a number of years ago when Wilbur had to clean things out.

    You all know me. I will go to extremes to Ascertain the truth when it comes to machine work. I have quite a few old unlimited barrels laying around. I just might do the same test again.
    Now that is a great experiment. I’ve been guilty of clocking the barrels on my builds because it was a consensus amongst builders. Thanks for the time and expense

  9. #39
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    May 2003
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    Balto., MD
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    570
    Hmmm
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  10. #40
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    Jan 2015
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    Greenwood, Ca
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    215
    Quote Originally Posted by jackie schmidt View Post
    Some years back,....

    I remember hearing about this, or possibly seeing the thread. I'd love to see the information again.

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    279

    Cut barrel 2 inch

    After reading Jackie's post of how he cut a barrel into 2-inch length pieces. I went and cut up a barrel first did as Jackie did and scribed a straight line
    then band sawed it into the 2-inch pieces. Then I measured both sides of each piece.
    Here are my finding of the cutup barrel. Not sure of the manufacture of the barrel 6 mm LV 6 groove. I had to make a bushing to fit the ball mic to get a good reading of the cuts on both sides. looks like a pretty straight barrel
    Chet

    -----Right-------left-----runout
    1---.3628------.3628---.0000 crown .908 dia.
    2---.3890------.3910---.002
    3---.4050------.4020---.003
    4---.4223------.4190---.0033
    5---.4383------.4352---.0031
    6---.4527------.4495---.0032
    7---.4700------.4670---.003
    8---.4852------.4822---.003
    9---.5033------.5000---.0033
    10--.5049------.5025---.0024 chamber 1.193 dia. length of cut 2.540 inch long and I pretty sure I cut off the first 2 inches.
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    Last edited by coyotechet; 04-03-2020 at 11:16 AM.

  12. #42
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    Feb 2003
    Location
    Houston, Texas
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    7,843
    Chet, my IPad will not download your attachments.

  13. #43
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    Feb 2003
    Location
    Poetry, Tex.
    Posts
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    QUESTION?
    Say your barrel bore is off .005" 18" in front of the throat, how far off is your throat. This is assuming that this is a measurement is constant from the throat to the muzzle.

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Surprise, AZ
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    269
    Quote Originally Posted by jackie schmidt View Post
    Chet, my IPad will not download your attachments.
    I get a board error as well.

    GsT

  15. #45
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    Sep 2003
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    Oriental, NC
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    I am friends with the engineer that set up Remington's recently new button rifled barrel line in Huntsville. Feed steel in one end and with a few QC checks along the way they get a finished barrel at the other end. Multiple tractor trailer loads of equipment. Millions of dollars invested. You're telling me they are scrapping that process to go to a more complicated, time consuming and more expensive process. I don't buy it. I've chambered oh probably 7500 barrels in the last 11 years. I have over 100 on the shop floor right now. I can inspect concentricity in the throat with a $25 jewelers loupe in about 10 seconds. I can train someone to do it in about 5 minutes.

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