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Thread: Has anyone seen this?

  1. #16
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    Jackie is right. When a barrel is drilled the drill is going to be pushed around by any harder spots it finds.

  2. #17
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    I am guessing the barrel/throat portion still needs to be set up in the lathe the same way(s) every precision rifle builder is doing now, to make sure the throat is parallel and concentric to this big ol’ banana shaped bore?

    If I found a chamber I cut was .003”+ of eccentric to the bore just ahead of the throat, I’d quit.

    I personally see it as a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist, but being the capitalist I am, I hope they make millions.

  3. #18
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    Dan 40X

    Hi Dan,
    You can call it BS if you want. I thought you would remember me, we actually talked quite a while ago.

    I always try to encourage people and companies who are trying to make our guns and industry better, not just dismiss or taint new things because they might endanger established ways of doing things and possibly bring change.

    That said, this is for real and make no mistake that it is coming like it or not. This is what we believe is going to be the next big step in helping to manufacture at scale very high quality rifles to the masses at prices most can afford. It is our goal anyway.

    Jamie Dodson
    Wolf Precision, Inc.
    www.wolfprecision.net
    Last edited by JamieD; 04-01-2020 at 10:03 PM.

  4. #19
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    IMO this is someone trying to convince the viewer that a problem exists order to sell the "solution".

    Related story: Years ago I had occasion to get to know John Illum, who manufactured Rampro actions. Those actions got their start as part of bolt action unlimited silhouette pistols that he built.
    https://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek049.html
    In order to save some money he would buy various top make un-contoured barrel blanks and cut them in half to make two pistol barrels. I would guess that he cut more barrels in half than anyone that I can think of. To one degree or another, at their centers , their bores were off center. He told me that the cut barrels tended to be better in this regard than the button ones. Although I do not remember the numbers, they were greater than you might expect.

    IMO if the chamber of the barrel is well aligned with the bore immediately in front of it, the throat should be square, if the rest of the process is properly done.

  5. #20
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    Ok, here are a few truths.

    I watched the video. He begins with two statements in order to convince you that there is indeed something wrong with the so called antiquated practice of chambering barrels using conventional methods.

    The first is that description of a barrel’s ID. If he has taken the time to section a barrel and ascertain the true nature of the run out in the ID of every barrel, he would see that the barrel’s ID is not bowed like a banana.

    The second are the absurd tolerance’s he describes in the explaining of throat being off center with the chamber and how that affects accuracy. .001 to .005 of an inch of throat miss alignment in a finished chamber? Good grief, if I have the lands and grooves of the lead and throat running out more than .0003 with the rest of the chamber when I am finished, I start looking for the cause.

    True, the steps involved in the entire operation of chambering is predicated on getting all machining operations truly straight with the throat. If your procedures are producing numbers over .001 inch, you need to review your setup and ascertain why.

    Any Gunsmith doing extreme accuracy chambering can say the same thing. Since there are Gunsmiths who do indeed use CNC machines with excellent results, perhaps the cause of failure should be anylized.

    My guess is the way they are doing barrels on their CNC machines is not producing the kind of accuracy in machining that is required for extreme accuracy. Since their production needs mandates the use of this equipment, they had to come up with something to make it all line up.

    Which get us back to a solution in search of a problem. Rather than over complicating the machining operations required in establishing chambers, threads, and tenon shoulders that are indeed truly straight with the throat, why not figure out why your procedures are producing unsatisfactory results.
    Last edited by jackie schmidt; 04-02-2020 at 07:52 AM.

  6. #21
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    Feb 2009
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    30
    Jackie,

    Calling someone out as telling lies to fool of convince people needs more than an opinion. Here are some truths.

    First Call Krieger Barrels and ask for Mike - General Manager of sales and 20+ year employee, ask him about what the rifling looks like inside. Here is our interview with him directly if you would like to listen, he is a great guy and wealth of knowledge.

    http://traffic.libsyn.com/longranges...er_Barrels.mp3.

    You can also call Krieger and ask for and talk to Helmut - head of operations.

    You can call and speak to Gordy Gritters, a legendary smith and friend about the curvature of the bore and the negative effects it has on the throat. What I am saying is based on actual facts and a problem in making extremely accurate rifles.

    Second, the throat is cut crooked, meaning the lands and grooves come back closer to the bullet on one side more than the other. A crooked throat. A huge problem and a fact. I have sat with and talked to several Presidents and Vice Presidents of some of the biggest rifle manufactures in the country along with their engineers discussing this problem. It is one of the biggest unspoken about issue in making rifles as no one had a way to fix it or address it at scale or in a dependable repeatable manner. It plaques accuracy by stealing some or in some cases a lot of the barrels potential accuracy (what it could have been). The ACE came about as a way to address and solve a problem and it does it really well.

    Most of the public does not know about the inside of the barrel and the problems it can cause. So your statements don't surprise me. It doesn't surprise me that you would not believe me at face value (human nature). I hope after listening to the interview and maybe talking with some people in the industry you'll learn something new. It's actually fascinating if you're really into this type of thing. I have a ton of respect for the major rifle makers today, the amount of problem solving they have to do on so many fronts, it is amazing. The ACE just addresses just one of many.

    Jamie Dodson
    Wolf Precision, Inc.
    www.wolfprecision.net
    Last edited by JamieD; 04-02-2020 at 06:43 AM.

  7. #22
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    The bore is going to be “crooked”, regardless if you are cutting the throat/leade by it self or with the chamber reamer. The throat/leade is the same length, and covers the same amount of real estate in the bore, regardless.

  8. #23
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    Feb 2009
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    Rubicon

    You are right the throat is the same length. But the first inch or two of the barrel is the straightest portion and we don't have a reamer following the lands and grooves several inches deep before cutting it. The reamer always follow the lands and grooves in one way or another and the deeper you go the more you get into this issue. It is not an absolute perfect solution, but a whole lot straighter and less chance of having non-repeatable results as each barrel can and is different like a fingerprint. So we just stay out of that area and only cut the throat in the straightest portion we have to work with.

    Jamie Dodson
    Wolf Precision, Inc.
    www.wolfprecision.net
    814-262-7994

  9. #24
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    Was going to call you, but I don't think you have an open mind.
    What does the Gritters method get you? His method will not straighten a barrel. To briefly post that if I indicate the throat and taper bore to that point and then ream, how is your method even close to this. Machining as I do and most accuracy smiths the chamber will be coaxial to the bore and throat. My reamer follows the taper bored hole and not a reamer bushing.
    Now I don't know if you or somebody else said a bore is straighter in a cut rifle barrel. I won't post an opinion on the advantages of either cut rifle or button, but what does the rifling method have to do with a straighter bore?

  10. #25
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    I have listened to the Krieger Representative’s discussion before, and I am 100 percent in agreement with everything he says until he starts taking about the run out in the barrels ID.

    He is flat out wrong. The simple fact is, the run out in a barrels ID is not manifested in the shape of a “bow”. And it amazes me, as a machinist, how Krieger allows this myth to be continually propagated. It might make could copy for those who have no basic knowledge of Machine shop practice, but there are quite a few of us out here who know better.

    By the way, shoot nothing but Krieger Barrels.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch Lambert View Post
    Was going to call you, but I don't think you have an open mind.
    What does the Gritters method get you? His method will not straighten a barrel. To briefly post that if I indicate the throat and taper bore to that point and then ream, how is your method even close to this. Machining as I do and most accuracy smiths the chamber will be coaxial to the bore and throat. My reamer follows the taper bored hole and not a reamer bushing.
    Now I don't know if you or somebody else said a bore is straighter in a cut rifle barrel. I won't post an opinion on the advantages of either cut rifle or button, but what does the rifling method have to do with a straighter bore?
    Gordy's method is about cutting the throat straight and square with the lands and groove's

    Jamie Dodson
    Wolf Precision, Inc.
    www.wolfprecision.net
    Last edited by JamieD; 04-02-2020 at 10:07 AM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie schmidt View Post
    I have listened to the Krieger Representative’s discussion before, and I am 100 percent in agreement with everything he says until he starts taking about the run out in the barrels ID.

    He is flat out wrong. The simple fact is, the run out in a barrels ID is not manifested in the shape of a “bow”. And it amazes me, as a machinist, how Krieger allows this myth to be continually propagated. It might make could copy for those who have no basic knowledge of Machine shop practice, but there are quite a few of us out here who know better.

    By the way, shoot nothing but Krieger Barrels.
    I get what you are saying. Maybe the word Bow should be replaced with curved or offset. But the main thing is the rifling is curved or starts to wonder as you go into the barrel. This is the problem being pointed out. I think we can trust the guys who have been making quality barrels for more than 20+ years or at least consider their probably is truth with good intentions, I think it's just trying to explain it in a way so the average person understands or can picture it.

    Jamie Dodson
    Wolf Precision, Inc.
    www.wolfprecision.net

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamieD View Post
    Gordy's method is about cutting the throat straight and square with the lands and groove's

    Jamie Dodson
    Wolf Precision, Inc.
    www.wolfprecision.net
    Would you be kind enough to explain how his method is better than mine for a quality chamber?
    I will be away from the computer for 2-3 hours. Need to make money while I can.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamieD View Post
    I get what you are saying. Maybe the word Bow should be replaced with curved or offset. But the main thing is the rifling is curved or starts to wonder as you go into the barrel. This is the problem being pointed out. I think we can trust the guys who have been making quality barrels for more than 20+ years or at least consider their probably is truth with good intentions, I think it's just trying to explain it in a way so the average person understands or can picture it.

    Jamie Dodson
    Wolf Precision, Inc.
    www.wolfprecision.net
    Trying to explain it to where the average person, with no knowledge of machining procedures, can understand it does not make the statement any more palatable.

    Many of us out here, who are machinist, have long recognized the problems involved when attempting to machine a surface or bore truly straight with something that is far from it.

    Most of us have developed machining methods that allow us to establish the chamber, threads, and tenon shoulder within extremely small tolerance numbers to a predetermined spot in a barrel, which can best be described as the first thing the bullet “sees” as it enters the throat, lead, or what ever you want to call it. And yes, we are talking about numbers that are measured in tenths of a thousandth, not thousandths.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dans40X View Post
    Mram10,
    Do you have the slightest clue or do you just watch You Tuber Vid's to increase your IQ?


    TactiKool & Remage Nut jobs will be all over this.BS.


    I personally wouldn't waste my time or monies.
    Dan, if you are going to talk crap to a man, be sure and keep that energy if you meet him in person. Back to blocking your arrogant, know it all self. You are the reason people leave forums. Add nothing and talk crap behind your keyboard. What a loser .....

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