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Thread: Would you go to an out of town match at this time??

  1. #46
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    Pastafarianism is big around these parts..... "nothing clings like spaghetti"

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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    IMO "the first positive case(s)" will show up once they begin testing for it...... IMO, this cat is O U T of thee bag, these horseys done LEFT the barn a long time ago.

    IMO "Containment" is a pipe dream, this virus will run it's course just like any other, like the river thru the reeds.

    IMO

    Thank you Calvin for your perspective.
    The virus will run itís course. There is no doubt.

    The Black Plague of the Middle Ages ran itís course. After 1/3 of the European population succumbed to it.

    It takes an effort to be prudent. It takes an effort to change our routines. In my opinion, it no longer is a personal choice because so many others could be affected by that personal choice.

    In the end, the fatality rate might not be any worse than the Flu that comes every winter. But then, we have no way of knowing at this time.

    At my shop, we have printed out a paper for our employees that says, in short, if you feel sick, take your temperature. If you have anything above normal, do not come to work, do not go to the doctor or the emergency room. Call a doctor and follow his instructions.

    The fewer people you are around the better your chances of avoiding infection. The fewer places you go, the better chances of avoiding infection.

    Common sense.
    Last edited by jackie schmidt; 03-20-2020 at 02:50 PM.

  3. #48
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    As Calvin said so well..... I'm bles't to be in a country where I can express my opinion freely...

    Where I can be called "stupid," not thrown in jail.

    And where I can vote, meaningfully.

    And where I can exercise "prudence" as I see fit, not as my goobermint diktates.... at least for now.

    And where I can fight to keep "for now" as an option.

    for now

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post


    As Calvin said so well..... I'm bles't to be in a country where I can express my opinion freely...

    Where I can be called "stupid," not thrown in jail.

    And where I can vote, meaningfully.

    And where I can exercise "prudence" as I see fit, not as my goobermint diktates.... at least for now.

    And where I can fight to keep "for now" as an option.

    for now
    Irrespective of whether your judgment is poor and you cause harm contravening recommendations?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Kielly View Post
    Irrespective of whether your judgment is poor and you cause harm contravening recommendations?
    For now.

  6. #51
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    I received a good email today from the president of the hospital where I work. She explained that social distancing and self-isolation are techniques to slow the spread of the virus so that the health care system can deal with it in a somewhat organized fashion rather than being overwhelmed. It may drag things out longer but more people will get better treatment and less of us will ultimately die from the virus.

    This is not about you or me or how we feel about what's being recommended. Its about people pulling together to mitigate a potentially devastating threat.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Kielly View Post
    Irrespective of whether your judgment is poor and you cause harm contravening recommendations?
    See here's the thing John..... I'm am American. We were FOUNDED UPON contravening convention. You evidently believe your government is "better than you at deciding your course of action" and that it supersedes the will of the people. Perhaps this is due to you historically living under a monarch. I don't remember The Ozzie Insurrection from my history classes....

    I simply don't. Nor do I believe the govt to be more capable than me at assessing data, trends nor the will of the people. In fact, I AM "THE GOVERNMENT"

    I AM responsible for making that and many other judgements....

    AND...... here in America "recommendation" means just that. Recommendation.

    We can argue, even call each other names, but in the end we HAVE free will here.

    I'll give you a f'rinstance, totally out of this topic.

    I know a lot of cops..... I know of a bunch here on this board..... and most of them are against my wife carrying a handgun downtown.

    I know FBI agents, ATF agents, enforcement agents of all stripes and most of THEM TOO, are against my wife carrying a handgun.

    I truly doubt you could get one single enforcement agent on this shooting forum to come out as pro-unrestricted concealed carry.

    Or that will support my stance that we should be able to buy suppressors at Walmart....

    So there ya' have it. I'm AMERICAN..... Olde Schoole and to the core..... and I fully accept the responsibility that comes with that.

  8. #53
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    I hear you, Al, but your concept is flawed.

    I recall once reading a member of this forum at one time saying that he had the right to choose to smoke stogies on the line. I asked that if I believe that my rights to a smoke free environment were contravened by his actions, would he approve me throwing a bucket of water on his cigar.

    Cooperation - it's an element of civilization.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Kielly View Post
    I hear you, Al, but your concept is flawed.

    I recall once reading a member of this forum at one time saying that he had the right to choose to smoke stogies on the line. I asked that if I believe that my rights to a smoke free environment were contravened by his actions, would he approve me throwing a bucket of water on his cigar.

    Cooperation - it's an element of civilization.
    And here we are in agreement....and to me, YES, if the guy takes the choice to inflict smoke on you against your will then, you can inflict the bucket on him. I'm a great believer in and vocal proponent of "live and let live" ..... in privacy. But the line STOPS when you're affecting someone else. Here on the left coast, in my area it's legal to defecate in public, use and drop needles in public, smoke a doober in public or go "clothing optional" ....

    But they're trying hard to stop people from going to the hardware store for some paint or a new door hannle so's they can catch up on some honey-do's while "sheltering in place."

    California has a governor who truly believes he has the right and the authority to make the whole state stay home. The people with the best judgement, those of us who've ALWAYS washed our hands, taught our young to use a tissue to turn the faucet or open the door in the public restroom, touch nothing in public, wear the little plastic disposable glove while fueling our vehicles, cough into our sleeves, shower and change clothes after mingling, etc etc ...... are being restricted

    I grew up in an era where people smoked on airplanes. And I'm still a social smoker. But I absolutely do not believe I have any "right" to inflict my smoke on others. The line stops when others are affected. Luckily for me, I'm ONLY a social smoker and as such I never have to look over my shoulder...But, even though it's not actually "against the law" I do not believe I nor anyone else has a "right" to yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater.... even though it's legal, it's completely against social mores and social convention.

    The kicker lies in the verbiage, and in the enforcement. I'm a big proponent of changing societal behavior, teach and help each other during the down time so that proper behavior becomes the norm thru these moments of incidental crises.

    We had a great tragedy last week in our church community. I've got friends staying right now, in my home who flew in from 2000mi. We had a funeral Wed that under normal conditions would have been attended by 1000 people. Our social 'limit' here is 50 people right now. This 50 people didn't even cover family... but in respect of the community mandates people set 2 or 3 to a pew, two pews apart. And limited the attendees to 50

    The roads around the church were lined with people and flowers, 6' apart, and there are pictures in all the papers.

    Contrary to popular belief, we ARE a very polite and respectful society, very civilized....... and we'll rally whole-heartedly around any well-presented "good cause."

    But unfortunately, IMO the crassest of us are trying to make policy for the masses and making a bollix of it.

    I'll always choose educated response over knee-jerk reaction and it is my belief that this whole thing is being over-blown for societally destructive reasons. By the same folks who've brought us to that point where if I tell someone "hey, go put some clothes on" I'm the one getting in trouble with the law.

    And my belief is that society benefits from folks being reminded, not told. Explained to, not preached at.

    Generally speaking, I believe WE ALL want to "do the right thing"..... but we will always disagree somewhat as to what IS "the right thing.".... and that this is a basic tenet of a free society. So we group up, we campaign, we vote in folks who will "speak for us" by proxy. The collective will of the people will generally out.

    I furthermore believe that These United States of America and our US Ethic are still working perfectly well...... we have voted in those folks who are now telling us what to do.

    MY rant, MY focus, MY WHOLE EFFORT is simply to point out that we're in many cases handling this situation very poorly. We're buying into the over-reaction. But also, that we have brought it upon ourselves..... so PUH-LEEZE PEOPLE! "Can we learn from this?"


    For next time?


    Because there will always be a next time...

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    See here's the thing John..... I'm am American. We were FOUNDED UPON contravening convention. You evidently believe your government is "better than you at deciding your course of action" and that it supersedes the will of the people. Perhaps this is due to you historically living under a monarch. I don't remember The Ozzie Insurrection from my history classes....

    I simply don't. Nor do I believe the govt to be more capable than me at assessing data, trends nor the will of the people. In fact, I AM "THE GOVERNMENT"

    I AM responsible for making that and many other judgements....

    AND...... here in America "recommendation" means just that. Recommendation.

    We can argue, even call each other names, but in the end we HAVE free will here.

    I'll give you a f'rinstance, totally out of this topic.

    I know a lot of cops..... I know of a bunch here on this board..... and most of them are against my wife carrying a handgun downtown.

    I know FBI agents, ATF agents, enforcement agents of all stripes and most of THEM TOO, are against my wife carrying a handgun.

    I truly doubt you could get one single enforcement agent on this shooting forum to come out as pro-unrestricted concealed carry.

    Or that will support my stance that we should be able to buy suppressors at Walmart....

    So there ya' have it. I'm AMERICAN..... Olde Schoole and to the core..... and I fully accept the responsibility that comes with that.

    Al,

    Wrong-o on the unrestricted concealed carry, from this almost 30 year deputy sheriff, now, thankfully, retired. I'm all for it, with a caveat: Pass a criminal background check. I doubt your wife is a felon, so carry on. I NEVER feared the armed citizen. In fact, one night, in the middle of nowhere, with back-up 15 minutes+ away, my partner and I had 7 prone at gunpoint (they were armed) when we enlisted the assistance of two good ol' boys and their deer rifles. I became an instant Jack O'Connor convert, because I fell in love with those two ol' boys .270's right then and there. There was many a call, when we had an extended ETA, that I hoped to hell the reporting party had a gun.

    Quick story with a happy ending: Several members of one of our local gangs decided to do a home invasion on a local whom they thought was a snitch (True. He was my snitch). They didn't figger' for the snitches dad and his ol' 30-30 in the picture. Cost one of them 2 inches of femur...the 2nd amendment at its finest. Kinda off point, but who doesn't love a "good guy wins" story...

    That gangster was easy to ID forever thereafter. He was the one walking in circles...


    Now...if you object to my criminal background check prior to a CCW issuance, well...we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I know A LOT of criminals. You don't want them running about with guns.

    The Supremes have ruled that there are exceptions to the various amendments, as long as they're "reasonable". I think it's reasonable that you pass a criminal background check before you get a CCW. I think it's reasonable that when I'm in foot pursuit of a bad guy and he runs into his house, I don't have to stop at his front door and scratch out a warrant to enter (fresh pursuit exception). I think it is reasonable that you can't exercise your 1st amendment rights by yelling "Fire"! in a crowded movie theatre.

    The rub is your definition of "reasonable". I can guaran-damn-tee you that Gavin Newsome's and my definition vary considerably...

    And I can guaran-damn-tee you that I would never try and shut down a church service because of the Corona virus, and I certainly would never threaten to sic the Natty Guard on them. I'd try and talk some sense into them..."God will understand you missing a Sunday given all that's going on"...and make them aware of the repercussions, but it would prolly do no good. The "God's will" crowd, as highlighted by Jackie's joke, is strong willed and can be blinded to reality by their faith. Nevertheless, I believe in all the amendments. I also believe that our founding fathers gave us incredible freedoms. And they hoped and prayed that we would be responsible and smart with them, and not do some of the things our freedoms enabled us to do.

    Justin

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    And here we are in agreement....and to me, YES, if the guy takes the choice to inflict smoke on you against your will then, you can inflict the bucket on him. I'm a great believer in and vocal proponent of "live and let live" ..... in privacy. But the line STOPS when you're affecting someone else. Here on the left coast, in my area it's legal to defecate in public, use and drop needles in public, smoke a doober in public or go "clothing optional" ....

    But they're trying hard to stop people from going to the hardware store for some paint or a new door hannle so's they can catch up on some honey-do's while "sheltering in place."

    California has a governor who truly believes he has the right and the authority to make the whole state stay home. The people with the best judgement, those of us who've ALWAYS washed our hands, taught our young to use a tissue to turn the faucet or open the door in the public restroom, touch nothing in public, wear the little plastic disposable glove while fueling our vehicles, cough into our sleeves, shower and change clothes after mingling, etc etc ...... are being restricted

    I grew up in an era where people smoked on airplanes. And I'm still a social smoker. But I absolutely do not believe I have any "right" to inflict my smoke on others. The line stops when others are affected. Luckily for me, I'm ONLY a social smoker and as such I never have to look over my shoulder...But, even though it's not actually "against the law" I do not believe I nor anyone else has a "right" to yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater.... even though it's legal, it's completely against social mores and social convention.

    The kicker lies in the verbiage, and in the enforcement. I'm a big proponent of changing societal behavior, teach and help each other during the down time so that proper behavior becomes the norm thru these moments of incidental crises.

    We had a great tragedy last week in our church community. I've got friends staying right now, in my home who flew in from 2000mi. We had a funeral Wed that under normal conditions would have been attended by 1000 people. Our social 'limit' here is 50 people right now. This 50 people didn't even cover family... but in respect of the community mandates people set 2 or 3 to a pew, two pews apart. And limited the attendees to 50

    The roads around the church were lined with people and flowers, 6' apart, and there are pictures in all the papers.

    Contrary to popular belief, we ARE a very polite and respectful society, very civilized....... and we'll rally whole-heartedly around any well-presented "good cause."

    But unfortunately, IMO the crassest of us are trying to make policy for the masses and making a bollix of it.

    I'll always choose educated response over knee-jerk reaction and it is my belief that this whole thing is being over-blown for societally destructive reasons. By the same folks who've brought us to that point where if I tell someone "hey, go put some clothes on" I'm the one getting in trouble with the law.

    And my belief is that society benefits from folks being reminded, not told. Explained to, not preached at.

    Generally speaking, I believe WE ALL want to "do the right thing"..... but we will always disagree somewhat as to what IS "the right thing.".... and that this is a basic tenet of a free society. So we group up, we campaign, we vote in folks who will "speak for us" by proxy. The collective will of the people will generally out.

    I furthermore believe that These United States of America and our US Ethic are still working perfectly well...... we have voted in those folks who are now telling us what to do.

    MY rant, MY focus, MY WHOLE EFFORT is simply to point out that we're in many cases handling this situation very poorly. We're buying into the over-reaction. But also, that we have brought it upon ourselves..... so PUH-LEEZE PEOPLE! "Can we learn from this?"


    For next time?


    Because there will always be a next time...
    Al,

    Pretty much ditto. Well said.

    Justin

  12. #57
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    No

    not at this time (go outa town to a shoot)
    Last edited by glp; 03-21-2020 at 09:11 AM.

  13. #58
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    Jun 2012
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    West central NH
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    566
    One more time for those that are so worried about their rights.

    This is a once it a lifetime issue. Believe it or don't.

    If you have a heart attack, or terminal cancer, or whatever, and you can't get treatment because they've run out of beds and supplies and half the doctors and nurses are sick or dead, and you're in the skeptic camp, then go ahead an effin die. I don't care.

    The higher the horse you're on, the more it's gonna hurt when you fall off.

    I give up. Have fun barkin' at the moon. I just hope you and your cronies don't take me down with you.

  14. #59
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    Justin, YES, I totally agree with sanity checks and criminal background checks.....

    I agree with your statements (and Jackie's) about the "God will provide/protect" crowd being unstable.......and that their are irrational folks in every stratum and stripe in our society...... whether your religion is "God" or "Gaia" the result is often the same.

    I furthermore believe that it is a deep-seated need for most of society that they be told what to do..... generally folks LOVE to be led, it absolves them of personal responsibility..... some just choose the preacher over the governor as their leader of choice.

    But I believe many/most shooters are hearty, caring, bright people capable of reason,

    Therefore I rant/beg "Please THINK with me!"



    al

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtmarmot View Post
    ..........

    This is a once it a lifetime issue. Believe it or don't.

    ..........
    As I said

    Sorry vtmarmot, I rationally choose "don't"

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