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Thread: Voodoo Rifle Accuracy

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    793
    17 twist here - below 65 deg F, just ain't going to be real pretty.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by tonykharper View Post
    " I generally don't clean a barrel until accuracy falls off, around the 2000 round mark depending on where I've been shooting."

    Most bench rest barrels are chambered short, meaning there will be from .100 to .200 bullet jam into the lands. This means our barrels tend to build a carbon ring at the mouth of the lead rather quickly.
    Many can only shoot 150-200 rounds before this carbon ring starts to build, starts to resize bullets, and makes bolt closing hard. Therefore we clean to remove this carbon ring often.

    We have also experimented with various twist rates. Slow twist, fast twist, gain twist, etc. etc. No one I know of found the panacea.

    In general I learned fast twist, below 15 per inch doesn't make better accuracy, slow twist above 17 can shoot killer in hot humid conditions. There was a time I carried different twist barrels to a match. When the temp got above 90 I would go to my killer 17.5 twist. For awhile I thought I was doing something but after two years of data turns out I didn't really gain anything. But when I was doing it I felt good about it.

    I do not want to discourage you from experimenting. You may find something we overlooked. But I would suggest there may be better areas to spend resources.

    TKH
    Makes perfect sense on the carbon ring....thanks.

    Originally, I also found faster twist barrels not performing well but I also found a correlation of twist to length based on an increase in angular velocity. When I increased the length of the faster twist barrels, they really woke up in an impressive way. When looking at TOF to calculate BC, there's a clear improvement. Doing the math on BC relative to twist using the current bullet designs, you're able to tap into roughly 70% of the published BC in a 16 twist barrel. Doing the math backwards and comparing TOF of 16 twist to the faster twist I'm testing, I'm able to calculate and see physical results that match and use all of the available BC. Does this mean anything to BR? I'm quite sure it does given the struggle with ambient conditions.

    I believe there's tons more to learn on many subjects within rimfire that have historically been tested by many and resulted in books on the subject. There's a considerable amount of anecdotal info and choosing to be skeptical has allowed me to serve this community well.

    Thanks TKH,
    MB

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    18

    ...."Many can only shoot 150-200 rounds before this carbon ring starts to build"

    Tony, its actually less rounds than that!

    We have a product that we have sold for many years that totally prevents that lead / carbon ring from forming. In fact one of the early rimfire benchrest shooters who is also a retired engineer and a long time assistant to one one of the legendary barrel makers called me one afternoon while I was at our rifle range testing a new small caliber wildcat. He went on and on about this lead ring problem and had tried many different products to prevent it with no success. I really wanted to keep shooting one of my new hot wildcats and truthfully just wanted to get him off the phone! Out of desperation I said tell you what I'll send you some of our super duper bullet lube and he grumbled and cussed a little but finally hug up. Then one weekend my wife and I were gone but returned home to find several messages for me to call him right away! So I did, thinking something awful happened to him and when he answered he said two things....BOY ....( i was a lot younger back then...lol..and that's how he always addressed me....you know those grumpy old benchrest shooters..!) you have done something no one in almost a hundred years has ever done...I said whats that as I had no clue what he was talking about ...and he said your product totally prevents the lead ring from forming! I said (because at that time I didn't shoot 22 rimfires much except for squirrel hunting) what lead ring? He explained it all to me in very great detail.... in fact I published his articles in our magazine Small Caliber News. The second thing he told me was that if all the 22 rimfire match ammo companies ( and he knew all of them very well..trust me!) had any brains they would be at your doorstep with their attorneys tomorrow morning! I'm still waiting.......i can tell you this, he is correct as it is all preventable with our product. BTW...All his testing was with his 22 rimfire custom built rail gun in his own tunnel using a very expensive modern bore scope!

    On a little side note, I got a call a few years back from a air gun shooter. He went on to tell me he had just won the world airgun championship and his friend placed forth using our product! I said I didn't think airguns has leading problems? He said they sure do but there is absolutely none using your product and at the end of the day we were the only two with clean hands! Interesting so now I coat my precision pellets too!

    High Noon

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    398
    Makes me think you're talking about Frank T back in the day?

    I suspect you're going to be getting a lot of questions about your product shortly. LOL

    Landy

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    upstate, N.Y.
    Posts
    2,714
    Mike,
    I would absolutely agree with what Tony has told you. Should you not know, he is not only an extremely accomplished shooter but a pretty fair builder in his own right and one of the few no BS and knowledgeable guys that will be on a forum.
    FWIW with many if not most traditional configuration barrels ( usually typical lands/grooves, not MI) we have seen detrimental throat carbon build in as little as 100+ rounds, especially in new blanks that are not well seasoned yet. As Tony said, most(from what I have seen) BR guys employ cleaning usually after a single card. A well known builder once stated "I can repeat clean" .
    All these guys that preach non cleaning until accuracy falls off, sounds simple until you ask if it happens in the middle of a big match.
    A good, match quality, SS barrel is likely always going to perform as good as it can starting from clean metal after a few shots lay down fresh, warm lube. This proved time and again from my long term smith that has built many national champ, world record guns and probably the best IR sporters money can buy. That is what I'd call the high water mark regarding "demands" so to speak.
    I would leave you with one final thought.
    Coming to market with a BR entry, you would be greatly aided by getting one in an accomplished competitors hands. Somebody versed in shooting accomplishment but, as important, versed in top level ammo selection, tuning, as well as proper maintenance of the platform. I suspect honest, reliable data can only help development progress.

    Best,
    Tim
    Last edited by tim; 02-26-2020 at 01:11 PM.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by tim View Post
    Mike,
    I would absolutely agree with what Tony has told you. Should you not know, he is not only an extremely accomplished shooter but a pretty fair builder in his own right and one of the few no BS and knowledgeable guys that will be on a forum.
    FWIW with many if not most traditional configuration barrels ( usually typical lands/grooves, not MI) we have seen detrimental throat carbon build in as little as 100+ rounds, especially in new blanks that are not well seasoned yet. As Tony said, most(from what I have seen) BR guys employ cleaning usually after a single card. A well known builder once stated "I can repeat clean" .
    All these guys that preach non cleaning until accuracy falls off, sounds simple until you ask if it happens in the middle of a big match.
    A good, match quality, SS barrel is likely always going to perform as good as it can starting from clean metal after a few shots lay down fresh, warm lube. This proved time and again from my long term smith that has built many national champ, world record guns and probably the best IR sporters money can buy. That is what I'd call the high water mark regarding "demands" so to speak.
    I would leave you with one final thought.
    Coming to market with a BR entry, you would be greatly aided by getting one in an accomplished competitors hands. Somebody versed in shooting accomplishment but, as important, versed in top level ammo selection, tuning, as well as proper maintenance of the platform. I suspect honest, reliable data can only help development progress.

    Best,
    Tim
    I agree with you 100% Tim and what Tony is saying certainly makes sense, he has my respect. Although my repeater chambers have a fair amount of engagement in the lands, they're not as tight as Tony has described, but my BR chamber is. If I've not appropriately communicated my appreciation for the sharing of info that's happening here, I'll reiterate that it's certainly appreciated and quite refreshing at the same time. I'm trying to be very careful because I don't want to come across the wrong way.

    Thanks again Tim,
    MB
    Last edited by DEFTI RIMFIRE; 02-26-2020 at 01:27 PM.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    upstate, N.Y.
    Posts
    2,714
    You're coming across just fine, no worries.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    SW Arkansas
    Posts
    185
    High Noon,
    Do you still sell the SPL ballistic conditioner? If not, is it still available from another
    source?
    Thanks,

    JDM

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    18

    Yes SPL is still available!

    Hi Joe,

    Yes SPL is still available at The Woodchuck Den Ph. 330.897.0614

    I just came across our original ad in Small Caliber News summer of 2001 which is the same issue Frank Tirrell did his fantastic article on eliminating the lead ring using SPL coating on 22 rimfires! ( Those SCN issues featuring Franks writings are still available) and interesting the price of SPL is still the same $12.95 ...may have to change that ...lol

    I have never pushed it but continue to sell it to precision centerfire shooters, rimfire benchrest shooters, long range lead bullet shooters and the competitive airgun shooters! We also sell it to the common shooter looking to improve their rifles performance and help extend barrel life. Btw..for almost two decades without one complaint! It works...

    Todd

    The Woodchuck Den Inc.
    330.897.0614
    www.woodchuckden.com

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    maine
    Posts
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by High Noon View Post
    Hi Joe,

    Yes SPL is still available at The Woodchuck Den Ph. 330.897.0614

    I just came across our original ad in Small Caliber News summer of 2001 which is the same issue Frank Tirrell did his fantastic article on eliminating the lead ring using SPL coating on 22 rimfires! ( Those SCN issues featuring Franks writings are still available) and interesting the price of SPL is still the same $12.95 ...may have to change that ...lol

    I have never pushed it but continue to sell it to precision centerfire shooters, rimfire benchrest shooters, long range lead bullet shooters and the competitive airgun shooters! We also sell it to the common shooter looking to improve their rifles performance and help extend barrel life. Btw..for almost two decades without one complaint! It works...

    Todd

    The Woodchuck Den Inc.
    330.897.0614
    www.woodchuckden.com
    Todd,

    I clicked on your site in order to find out more about your product but thereís not much there. Is there a website listing it with more information?

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    18

    ...question for Vudoo group

    I just looked at your website and action. Great thinking & Interesting!

    My question is a new single shot version going to be a better solution for rimfire benchrest since you have precise ( as stated on your website) straight in feeding not at an angle that would deform the soft rim fire bullet. I would think if it feeds perfectly now you would have a huge advantage for shooters getting off their shots quickly in a certain condition. Your repeater is plenty stiff and has adequate bedding surface. Speed shooting in centerfire benchrest seems to rule these days and maybe your Vudoo action could possibly revolutionize the rimfire benchrest game.

    Then question number two ....maybe a centerfire repeater for those centerfire benchrest speed shooters!

    Thanks,

    High Noon
    Last edited by High Noon; 03-03-2020 at 10:52 AM.

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    upstate, N.Y.
    Posts
    2,714
    [QUOTE=High Noon;832258]I just looked at your website and action. Great thinking & Interesting!

    My question is a new single shot version going to be a better solution for rimfire benchrest since you have precise ( as stated on your website) straight in feeding not at an angle that would deform the soft rim fire bullet. I would think if it feeds perfectly now you would have a huge advantage for shooters getting off their shots quickly in a certain condition. Your repeater is plenty stiff and has adequate bedding surface. Speed shooting in centerfire benchrest seems to rule these days and maybe your Vudoo action could possibly revolutionize the rimfire benchrest game.

    Then question number two ....maybe a centerfire repeater for those centerfire benchrest speed shooters!

    Thanks,

    High Noon[/QUOTE

    Todd, while Mike surely capable of answering, virtually all current BR actions allow quick single loading, which is a definite preference , including IR sporters which have a magazine which nobody uses.
    With a single feed action, rarely will you not have enough time to shoot a card.
    When conditions are very consistent (rarely), I have shot 25 bull cards in less than 4 minutes out of a 30 minute allotment.
    The question then becomes, why give up any stiffness and bedding surface for no practical gain.
    Last edited by tim; 03-03-2020 at 12:04 PM.

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    12
    Just Like Tim stated you can shoot a single shot pretty quick..I shot a smallbore F-class this past weekend and was done in less then 8 mins with unlimited sighters and 20 rounds...I felt my Vudoo's accuracy increased with the single feed system installed. I am not sure the rules in ARA or 50/50 if a repeater is legal..They are NOT legal in NRA or ASSA smallbore f-class. I am not saying the the repeater action is illegal, you are NOT allowed put ammo in a mag.

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    90
    ARA or IR50 have no rules against using mag feed rifles. As a matter of fact, IR50 Sporter class it's mandatory for the rifle to have a mag, but you don't have to use it.

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