Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: Kelbly Actions What not to do to improve accuracy

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    26

    Kelbly Actions What not to do to improve accuracy

    We have been hearing rumors of shooters with Kelbly actions are trying heavier 28 pound firing pin springs. The standard for Kelbly actions is 22 – 24 pound springs. The Kelbly firing pin system was copied after Remington’s 700 design and for many years we used OEM Remington complete firing pin bought directly from Remington. When Remington introduced the J Lock firing pin system, Kelbly’s started producing our own complete firing pin system. The main reason Kelbly’s has used the Remington system is the amount of time and money Remington spent on testing the firing pin system and proper ignition in 1960 (approximate). Remington and Mike Walker were looking for the most accurate system and spent several years and around 150,000.00 dollars in the quest for ultimate accuracy. Mike Walker was an avid short range benchrest shooter till he died at the age of 101 in 2013. Mike was driven to get in HOF as a shooter but was 1 point short of the ten points needed. Now that 150,000.00 dollars plus that Remington spent would be equal in today’s dollars 1,303,418.92. Mike was a close enough friend to the Kelbly’s that he told us this story.

    Mike had warned us about using firing pin springs that were lighter or heavier than the 22 – 24 pound spring would greatly affect accuracy. This was proven to Remington along with the amount of fall the firing pin itself must have. The firing pin fall MUST be .240ths or longer to not have negative effect on accuracy. And many a short range BR shooter has proved this over and over again in their pursuit of better accuracy. We have also heard long range shooters find changing to a shorter length of fall and heavier firing pin springs was detrimental to accuracy.

    Kelbly’s is hearing that what many of you call timing a action, that while timing the action for smooth bolt closing, many shooters are reducing the length of fall to be shorter than .240ths. This as with using a 28 pound spring will cause accuracy to suffer. In many case it causes vertical or wild shots. We have over the past several years had to replace bolts that were “timed” with new bolts that are within Kelbly specs due to inaccuracies shooters started to experience.

    It seems about every five to ten years, new shooters searching for more accuracy out of their rifles, are doing the same thing that has been tried since the 1950’s. I have personally seen it since the early 1980’s when I started at Kelbly’s.

    We always encourage shooters to look at ways to improve accuracy, but using a heavier firing pin springs and reducing the length of fall of the firing pin is not the answer. This has been proven over the last 60 plus years, over and over again.

    Jim

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Kentucky-Home of the Kentucky Wildcats
    Posts
    2,264
    Quote Originally Posted by jamesakelbly View Post
    We have been hearing rumors of shooters with Kelbly actions are trying heavier 28 pound firing pin springs. The standard for Kelbly actions is 22 – 24 pound springs. The Kelbly firing pin system was copied after Remington’s 700 design and for many years we used OEM Remington complete firing pin bought directly from Remington. When Remington introduced the J Lock firing pin system, Kelbly’s started producing our own complete firing pin system. The main reason Kelbly’s has used the Remington system is the amount of time and money Remington spent on testing the firing pin system and proper ignition in 1960 (approximate). Remington and Mike Walker were looking for the most accurate system and spent several years and around 150,000.00 dollars in the quest for ultimate accuracy. Mike Walker was an avid short range benchrest shooter till he died at the age of 101 in 2013. Mike was driven to get in HOF as a shooter but was 1 point short of the ten points needed. Now that 150,000.00 dollars plus that Remington spent would be equal in today’s dollars 1,303,418.92. Mike was a close enough friend to the Kelbly’s that he told us this story.

    Mike had warned us about using firing pin springs that were lighter or heavier than the 22 – 24 pound spring would greatly affect accuracy. This was proven to Remington along with the amount of fall the firing pin itself must have. The firing pin fall MUST be .240ths or longer to not have negative effect on accuracy. And many a short range BR shooter has proved this over and over again in their pursuit of better accuracy. We have also heard long range shooters find changing to a shorter length of fall and heavier firing pin springs was detrimental to accuracy.

    Kelbly’s is hearing that what many of you call timing a action, that while timing the action for smooth bolt closing, many shooters are reducing the length of fall to be shorter than .240ths. This as with using a 28 pound spring will cause accuracy to suffer. In many case it causes vertical or wild shots. We have over the past several years had to replace bolts that were “timed” with new bolts that are within Kelbly specs due to inaccuracies shooters started to experience.

    It seems about every five to ten years, new shooters searching for more accuracy out of their rifles, are doing the same thing that has been tried since the 1950’s. I have personally seen it since the early 1980’s when I started at Kelbly’s.

    We always encourage shooters to look at ways to improve accuracy, but using a heavier firing pin springs and reducing the length of fall of the firing pin is not the answer. This has been proven over the last 60 plus years, over and over again.

    Jim
    Thank you, thank you! Too many people have trended toward absolutely zero cock on close, after "feel", when they are riding a razor's edge in terms of accuracy. I've been preaching exactly what you are saying. There is an impression that one aspect makes everything better, when it does not. I will gladly fudge toward a little cock on close with good fall rather than follow the pack toward anything that takes us backward. Again, thank you! Your word carries a lot of weight....no small play on words intended.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    7,580
    Great info, James.

    I have followed Kelbly’s advice on firing pin fall and spring pressure for years, and have cured more than one action’s ill ignition tendencies by modifying the trigger hangers to give at least the amount of firing pin fall and spring pressure found in a Panda.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    60

    Cool

    Yes great info James Kelbly thanks for posting and I enjoyed reading it!

    Fred Martin

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    washington.........STATE that is.
    Posts
    10,694
    thank you Jim


    You'se guys rock

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by jackie schmidt View Post
    Great info, James.

    I have followed Kelbly’s advice on firing pin fall and spring pressure for years, and have cured more than one action’s ill ignition tendencies by modifying the trigger hangers to give at least the amount of firing pin fall and spring pressure found in a Panda.

    Jackie, Are you shimming the hangers ? Tell us more ?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by PrplePanda View Post
    Jackie, Are you shimming the hangers ? Tell us more ?
    https://benchrest.com/showthread.php...e-in-Bat-Neuvo
    Post #8 Jackie shows how he puts Bushings in the hanger to move the trigger back. Also post #21 by Greg Walley is IMO 1 of the most informative posts related to this subject I've read.
    On a side note, I've slotted the holes that mount trigger hanger to the action and removed some material from the tab on the back of the hanger to get more pin fall. It creates more cock on close but those mysterious shots that drop out of the group magically disappear.
    Last edited by J.Coe; 01-11-2020 at 09:30 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    153
    I'm trying to learn here and sorry if this is a remedial question but how would one go about determining the length of fall for a firing pin?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Fresno
    Posts
    5,537
    If the arrangement is like a Remington, with the action cocked, use the bottom of the calipers like a depth mic. to measure how far out of the shroud the back of the cocking piece is, and then after pulling the trigger measure how far down into the shroud the back of the cocking piece is. By adding these two measurements you will end up with the total firing pin fall.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    50
    Boyd, my gunsmith showed me the method you described. But what do we do if lets say that measurement is .240 or .230? What must we do to increase it to the .250 measurement? Do we need to move the trigger forward or back? I saw something on BUllet central where they sell a infinite position hanger, is this what we need?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    87
    Quote Originally Posted by michaeljp65 View Post
    Boyd, my gunsmith showed me the method you described. But what do we do if lets say that measurement is .240 or .230? What must we do to increase it to the .250 measurement? Do we need to move the trigger forward or back? I saw something on BUllet central where they sell a infinite position hanger, is this what we need?
    If your gunsmith doesn’t know then I would find a new one.🙄
    It is back and you will notice the bolt feels harder to close, the further you go back. If I had .240 pin fall I would leave it alone. If you are actually having ignition problems at .240 maybe it needs a new Kelbly Firing pin spring.
    The trigger also can impact ‘fall’ slightly depending what you have installed in the action.

    Michael

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    50
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Huebner View Post
    If your gunsmith doesn’t know then I would find a new one.🙄
    It is back and you will notice the bolt feels harder to close, the further you go back. If I had .240 pin fall I would leave it alone. If you are actually having ignition problems at .240 maybe it needs a new Kelbly Firing pin spring.
    The trigger also can impact ‘fall’ slightly depending what you have installed in the action.

    Michael
    Michael, I didn't say my gunsmith didn't know how to fix it. He just told me how to check it. Im not having ignition problems, just trying to learn these things for myself and maybe in the future save dollars by doing things myself instead of running to a gunsmith every time something is wrong and waiting for him to have time to check it.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Fresno
    Posts
    5,537
    Quote Originally Posted by michaeljp65 View Post
    Boyd, my gunsmith showed me the method you described. But what do we do if lets say that measurement is .240 or .230? What must we do to increase it to the .250 measurement? Do we need to move the trigger forward or back? I saw something on BUllet central where they sell a infinite position hanger, is this what we need?
    To increase fall, move the trigger back.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    50
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd Allen View Post
    To increase fall, move the trigger back.
    Thank you.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    153
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd Allen View Post
    If the arrangement is like a Remington, with the action cocked, use the bottom of the calipers like a depth mic. to measure how far out of the shroud the back of the cocking piece is, and then after pulling the trigger measure how far down into the shroud the back of the cocking piece is. By adding these two measurements you will end up with the total firing pin fall.
    Thanks Boyd

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •