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Thread: Tuners!!!!

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    Serious question..Can the speed of the up or down force be quantified, realistically, as in mph? I wonder how it would correlate to a crosswind drift of the same wind speed. I would think the two will be very near the same, but what I think I'm hearing is that some believe that it may be of more value on target than an equal cross wind speed. If the speed is greater than seems logical, why would it not appear on flag tails? Just thinking out loud here. Not arguing, hoping to learn. It would seem logical that the air density may be greater at these boundaries. That might account for a small amount of it. I've seen tails literally go straight up like they were in a tornado..or at least a dust devil kind of force outdoors.
    Well you're thinking in terms of wind which I believe, strictly speaking, it is not.
    You have to think in terms of optical dispersions if that's a term, those layers vary considerably over 50 yards so, again, ultimately, where you're pointing and where the gun is pointing can be different.
    It's more of a slow, steady thing until something out there equalizes all the air temps, which is why it dosen't seem to move a tail. I cannot figure how you'd begin to quantify that. Maybe temp sensors setup downrange.
    Would be an interesting experiment.
    The guys that comment about indoors where a door opens/closes....my best guess is that it re shuffles some of those layers

  2. #77
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    I used to be able to feel the difference in the temperature when walking down the range around sundown, at our old range. Felt it more when wearing shorts.The large boulders under the surface would give off heat they absorbed from the sun during the day. Focus you scope to that distance and watch the mirage bloom.

  3. #78
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    so mirage? I could buy that and i even said that. Has anyone ever tried setting a few fans, instead of flags, down their shooting lane? I've mentioned that before on another forum too, but i don't recall getting a response. Any rule against it? Seems like a reasonable way to push the mirage and mild air currents away and in a more consistent fashion.
    if you check back a ferw yrs ago you will see bill brawands cooling fan blowing fan on camilius rifle range

  4. #79
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by tonykharper View Post
    mike,

    i'm not bill but i have shot indoors quite a bit. I believe you are right about the problem being mirage.

    Years ago we clamped a scope with cross hairs to a bench, adjusted it so it was centered. About every 5 or 10 minutes one of us would peek through it. Rarely would the crosshairs still be on the dot.

    Many times you can sit and watch your cross hairs dance across the 10 ring sometimes leaving the 10 ring altogether.

    Especially bad when you have one end of the range heated and the other not.

    There isn't enough air movement to account for how much poi difference you can encounter.

    Air currents are changed as people move about. The air currents with the mirage means you aren't aiming each shot where you think you are.

    As long as the mirage is consistent you can deal with it. But constant movement can make it difficult to impossible.

    Can be very frustrating, but still better than not shooting at all.

    Tkh
    i shot yrs at kilertown in pa. Heat with the door being opened made mirage trrible so boys look for everything you will better shooter in 50 yrd building

  5. #80
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    I even saw a competitor place a fan under his target indoors. Said it was to blow the mirage away.

  6. #81
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    Fan in window

    I shot in a winter evening 10-22 50 BR league back in the 90's. HB Shilen barrels, custom stocks, new or tricked out triggers, sub-sonic ammo only.......Ely, Gold Medal or Lapua ammo etc. 5 shot 5 target agg each week. Cumulative agg winners for the year.

    We shot from indoor to lighted target outdoor. We had two tubes 16"x16"x96" with waffled carpet inside to suppress the report from the rifles for the neighbors nearby.

    The tubes worked extremely well muffling the sound but the mirage was hideous.

    Tried blowing fans trough the tubes with little success.

    Solved the problem by opening a window in the clubhouse and placing a fan in the window blowing out. The cold winter air flowed through the tubes outside to in eliminating the mirage.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricco1949 View Post
    I shot in a winter evening 10-22 50 BR league back in the 90's. HB Shilen barrels, custom stocks, new or tricked out triggers, sub-sonic ammo only.......Ely, Gold Medal or Lapua ammo etc. 5 shot 5 target agg each week. Cumulative agg winners for the year.

    We shot from indoor to lighted target outdoor. We had two tubes 16"x16"x96" with waffled carpet inside to suppress the report from the rifles for the neighbors nearby.

    The tubes worked extremely well muffling the sound but the mirage was hideous.

    Tried blowing fans trough the tubes with little success.

    Solved the problem by opening a window in the clubhouse and placing a fan in the window blowing out. The cold winter air flowed through the tubes outside to in eliminating the mirage.
    That makes sense to me. A warm room(or tube) with warm air rushing through a window is terrible for mirage.
    Last edited by mwezell; 09-01-2020 at 11:07 AM.

  8. #83
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    The last word on tuners?

    Tuners and can they actually stop the muzzle is a topic often seen on the shooting forums. Most people say no they can not.

    Many believe tuners only act as a weight and they can only slow the movement of the barrel.

    Others think barrels can be tuned to compensate for fast rounds verse slow rounds. Many even tune by shooting fast rounds and slow rounds and adjusting the tuner until these rounds strike the same vertical location.

    All of this has led to some heated discussions.

    There is a thread on another forum that I thought was interesting and should be copied for those interested.

    http://www.wwaccuracy.com/showthread.php?t=5626

    I know better than to take sides so I'll leave it there.

    TKH
    Last edited by tonykharper; 09-03-2020 at 09:23 AM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonykharper View Post
    Tuners and can they actually stop the muzzle is a topic often seen on the shooting forums. Most people say no they can not.

    Many believe tuners only act as a weight and they can only slow the movement of barrel.

    Others think barrels can be tuned to compensate for fast rounds verse slow rounds. Many even tune by shooting fast rounds and slow rounds and adjusting the tuner until these round strike the same vertical location.

    All of this has led to some heated discussions.

    There is a thread on another forum that I thought was interesting and should be copied for those interested.

    http://www.wwaccuracy.com/showthread.php?t=5626

    I know better than to take sides so I'll leave it there.

    TKH
    Tony, BC is maybe the only person left on earth that still believes that's how a barrel vibrates and the whole stopped muzzle bung.

    It's been proven wrong and is just counter to physics. Why resurrect that nonsense over here? It's best left on his personal site for art.

    Lots of GOOD info can be found here.
    https://www.varmintal.com/aengr.htm#ModalAccuracy
    Last edited by mwezell; 09-01-2020 at 11:20 AM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    Tony, BC is maybe the only person left on earth that still believes that's how a barrel vibrates and the whole stopped muzzle bung.

    It's been proven wrong and is just counter to physics. Why resurrect that nonsense over here? It's best left on his personal site for art.

    Lots of GOOD info can be found here.
    https://www.varmintal.com/aengr.htm#ModalAccuracy
    Nice post.
    When you have won about 10% of what TKH has, you get to preach.
    You have also stated RF barrels and CF barrels vibrate EXACTLY the same. I have recieved PM’s from guys that have tested RF barrels considerably more than yourself that have stated, if they have learned one single thing........that ain’t true.
    I have asked you a single rebuttal question which you have consistently dodged....IR sporters. Please, kindly tell me how my sporter works .
    And FWIW I ask this as a serious question, not to bust your chops. Now you asked a question above which I extended a polite, factual ( I hope) response. So I think I deserve, at least, an attempt.
    At the end of the day, most guys are interested in results, not physics lessons.
    Put up or shut up.
    Last edited by tim; 09-01-2020 at 04:22 PM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim View Post
    Nice post.
    When you have won about 10% of what TKH has, you get to preach.
    You have also stated RF barrels and CF barrels vibrate EXACTLY the same. I have recieved PM’s from guys that have tested RF barrels considerably more than yourself that have stated, if they have learned one single thing........that ain’t true.
    I have asked you a single rebuttal question which you have consistently dodged....IR sporters. Please, kindly tell me how my sporter works .
    At the end of the day, most guys are interested in results, not physics lessons.
    Put up or shut up.
    I've never dodged anything you can dish out, for starters. Sporters shoot for the same reason that any other in tune rifle shoots when it's in tune. It's not a difficult concept at all. You're showing your ignorance of the subject.

    Second, you'll need to do a couple of things for me...One is to name another person who has actually done vibration analysis regarding tuners and barrels. This is important because you've either done it or your full of . I'll name one and you name another...Varmint Al.

    Third, I guess you'll have to define what you mean when you say a rf bbl vibrates differently than a cf.
    Yes, if it's less stiff, it vibrates differently but no, it doesn't magically know the primer is not in the center.

    You can only offer what you've been told and that Tony is a very accomplished shooter.

    What have YOU got? I'm betting nothing...but I'll wait for you to give me something based on physics and not what someone told you.

    Come on Timmy...holding my breath here.
    You called me out buddy. I'm here! Dont bring he said, she said bs to this dance.
    Last edited by mwezell; 09-01-2020 at 04:18 PM.

  12. #87
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    Thinking WAYYYY back

    All this talk about tuners, make me think back n my first National Championship and the Tuner I used. Never saw a so call original Calfee when I purchased mine. They had two styles, One longer than what is picture here. I had the longer one.

    https://www.benchrest.com/timeprecis...upertuner.html

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred J View Post
    All this talk about tuners, make me think back n my first National Championship and the Tuner I used. Never saw a so call original Calfee when I purchased mine. They had two styles, One longer than what is picture here. I had the longer one.

    https://www.benchrest.com/timeprecis...upertuner.html
    Fred,

    Yours probably looked something like these.

    TKH

    Click image for larger version. 

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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    I've never dodged anything you can dish out, for starters. Sporters shoot for the same reason that any other in tune rifle shoots when it's in tune. It's not a difficult concept at all. You're showing your ignorance of the subject.

    Second, you'll need to do a couple of things for me...One is to name another person who has actually done vibration analysis regarding tuners and barrels. This is important because you've either done it or your full of . I'll name one and you name another...Varmint Al.

    Third, I guess you'll have to define what you mean when you say a rf bbl vibrates differently than a cf.
    Yes, if it's less stiff, it vibrates differently but no, it doesn't magically know the primer is not in the center.

    You can only offer what you've been told and that Tony is a very accomplished shooter.

    What have YOU got? I'm betting nothing...but I'll wait for you to give me something based on physics and not what someone told you.

    Come on Timmy...holding my breath here.
    You called me out buddy. I'm here! Dont bring he said, she said bs to this dance.
    Ignorance of the subject??? Have you been within 100 feet of a sporter? You know the ones , the good ones which shoot in pretty much all conditions without benefit of adjustable tuners.
    I won’t name any guys, they have asked me not too. Essentially they understand the benefit of not arguing with a brick wall.
    I can offer plenty of real world experience and more knowledge with actual gunsmiths that have built more world record guns Than you can imagine that have one thing in common, as it applies to rimfire, basically you’re full of sh.t.
    You mak make/sell tuners, although personally, I’ve never seen one at any match, nor pictures of same. Since you are, at least a part time smith, where’s those finely honed Mike E match killers?
    Several of the guys you tend to preach to know how to shoot AND tune a rifle or two
    It’s pretty simple, with this vast sum of knowledge you continue to preach about, wouldn't it seem logical You might have shown up somewhere at a sanctioned match (that anybody ever heard of ) and shown the world.

    Where’s the beef ? Mikey

    IMHO my belief/suspicion is that a lot, if not most/all of your testing has been with average barrels, not superior ones, because if you have ever had a really superior barrel you could actually be shown, those , when they get tuned, they’re tuned, now, tomorrow, next month, and three years from now. My best gun hasn’t had a click since the barrel went on.

    Few more things for you Mikey. Does a barrel slightly out of round vibrate EXACTLY like one perfectly round in the bore ?
    Does a barrel with a nice even taper vibrate EXACTLY the same as one with lots of inconsistencies
    in the taper?
    Does a barrel the seals a round very quickly in the early part of the bore vibrate. EXACTLY the same as one that does not.
    Does a barrel that puts a slug “ to sleep” in the first 18”-20” vibrate EXACTLY the same as one incapable of ever doing that?
    Point being here Mikey, you may think you have answers to some questions but I guarantee you you have’nt thought of all the important questions , nor likely utilized big enough samples to realize there are slight variations, enough to make a difference.

    Back to school for Mikey.
    Last edited by tim; 09-01-2020 at 05:05 PM.

  15. #90
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    Smile

    You're correct, Tony. I used to get teased about shooting closer to the target. My only comment, is lookout for the powder burns, when scoring it.

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