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Thread: The future of 25 M BR Shooting

  1. #1
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    The future of 25 M BR Shooting

    Hello Members:

    Over the last few years we have seen a major leap in technology and precision has evolved exponentially, specially seen at longer distances...

    Many of us have shoot or shot 10 M ISSF (Pistol & Rifle) and many others have anchored to 25 BR shooting. The issue I've seen over the last 2-3 years is that more and more people are evolving into other disciplines like Silhouettes and 75 & 100 M Benchrest using the same or larger calibers than what are allowed for 25 M Benchrest and many people are just NOT interested in exclusively shooting 25 BR or are not interested in shooting this discipline at all.

    I've talked to many young and old time shooters at different events and the general consensus is that 25 M BR "per-se" is an "OLD FART" discipline soon to be extinct (Hate the Old-fart word)...Most people agree that shooting 3 targets for each class (25 M) is just TOO BORING and "Too much of the same"...Shooters (specially the younger generations) seem to like the kick they get when knocking down silhouettes, shooting against the clock while scoring high and shooting at much longer distances that are more realistic to hunting distances, or at least more challenging than 25 M...

    After the 2018 Nationals I've participated for the first time ever in many shoots and tournaments that have had these disciplines, and if you ask me they all have been so much fun and the variety has made them pretty challenging...The norm for these kinds of shoots is to shoot 25 M (3 targets) as we do for USARB, but you only shoot ONE CLASS and all classes are shot simultaneously...Then you shoot silhouettes (1/5th scale) at 40, 50, 60 & 70 yards, 100 M Benchrest (either with pre-qualifying at 75 or directly at 100 Meters) with calibers up to .30 and even .33 in some clubs, and to make things more fun, some other clubs like Quail Creek in Arizona are also including 10 M Pistol and also silhouettes shot with a pistol...

    For 25M Benchrest we generally have at least 2 guns: HV and LV and some of us shoot Open or Unlimited with our HV, but some shooters have 3 or even 4 guns for shooting all classes. The current trend in mostly all important tournaments requires a 25 M gun, a Silhouette gun that can also be your 100 M gun and optional is a pistol if you want to shoot pistol...I've seen people shooting silhouettes with their HV guns at the longer 70 yards with their .177's (Mike S. from Quail Creek shoots frequently perfect silhouette scores with his HV gun)

    To me an event where you shoot precision (3 targets) at 25 M, Silhouettes at 40, 50, 60 & 70 Yd., precision at 100 M with an optional 10 M class for pistol and even silhouettes is the epitome of airgun shooting...

    In our case, we are a small club in Mointana but ALL of us seem to have been bitten by the "Trend Bug" and are practicing and preparing guns for silhouettes, for 75 & 100 M and some of us pulled out our pistols out of the safe...In previous years we were shooting 25 M (HV & LV) at least once a week and some of us also practiced during the week...Nowadays we are all doing the same frequent shooting but mostly at 100 M, at silhouettes at the official distances and sporadic 25 Meter HV and LV.

    The purpose of my post is to find out what are you and your clubs doing in this respect and also to discuss how do you all see the future of airgun competition shooting?

    Regards for all members,

    AZ

  2. #2
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    i agree AZ the hobby seems to be heading in the direction you say
    BUT
    i am an old fart (77) and can not do some of the things these youngsters do
    i am guessing you are not that old - YET
    and i have also been wondering what we old farts will be doing in the Bench-rest future?

  3. #3
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    Cool

    "i agree AZ the hobby seems to be heading in the direction you say...BUT I am an old fart (77) and can not do some of the things these youngsters do
    i am guessing you are not that old - YET


    Hi Dick:

    I am following your age steps not too far behind....

    Silhouettes, BR at 25, BR at 50 and BR at 75/100 M will make no difference to you or I shooting against the youngsters....Where these shooters have an advantage is in the Speed Shoot, but that is assuming you enter the "Amateur" (Non-Pro) class where you start with an empty magazine and at the signal you load it-fire-and stop the chrono when finished...
    BUT if you enter the PRO Class which a shooter with your pedigree must do, then you start with a fully loaded magazine and the rest (at the signal) is about how fast you can load the magazine in your gun, aim and pull the trigger...No disadvantages for us old timers...

    The one shoot where youngsters have an advantage (never shot it but saw the RMAC 2019 video) is where positions are changed from prone to bench to kneeling, etc. and you are shooting against the clock..I honestly pass on this competition, if I try changing positions that fast I will come apart before the 3rd shot and my wife will probably not assemble me back ever!

    I've been monitoring what you, Ron and others in TX are shooting at 50 M...This winter I needed to stay in AZ for some surgery and couldn't resist shooting Silhouettes and 100 M BR...I am glad I did because it was SO MUCH FUN that I ended up buying an Impact MKII that I am preparing for shooting everything most likely with the .22 barrel (FT at the EBR, 50M, Silhouettes and 75/100M)...I originally wanted a RAW LRT but after talking to Martin and discovering that I would not be getting the gun until sometime in 2020, I told him I wanted it for shooting it now and not to be part of my estate, so I looked for another good platform to start with!!...Martin is an awesome guy but he is limited to Air Force's time frame and guidelines...

    This Impact (New MKII model) is very accurate and an easy to work platform out of the box...I am testing the original FX barrels but also testing two other barrels: .22 and a .30 custom ordered to my specs and already machined and being tested...I have been shooting the .30 for like a week with good promising results, this .30 cal is just amazingly accurate and I haven't had much time spent on it...I will work on the .22 this week health and weather conditions allowing (we are getting much of the smoke from the 2 million acre fire in Alberta).

    I've never had a .30 Pellet gun before and one interesting thing I discovered is that .30 cal. JSB pellets head size the SAME very consistently....I have measured about ten 150 pellet tins (different lots) and ALL of them have head sized the same!!...So it is a matter of weighing them and shooting!

    You are going to laugh or crucify me for the sacrilege, but let me say that I noticed that at the EBR and RMAC (Big $$$ events) they DON'T use flags!!!...The reason for that is that there is no time to set them up (That is what I've been told)...So I am back to my hunting days where leaves, grass, dust, bird flight patterns, trees, etc. will be my guidelines for wind...I am using flags for my testing of course, but I am starting to practice shooting with no flags in case I can not set them up.

    Regards,

    AZ
    Last edited by AZUARO; 07-11-2019 at 02:09 AM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
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    763
    Instant gratification- very addicting - nothing new , action shooting seems to be the name of the game at my local club. The old standby of absolute precision at what ever range are too ho-hum for most of the newer members which make up some 60+ % now of the 2000+ ( last count I know of ) members. personally I am limited to either off the bench or on my hind legs and my eyes change over the course of the day, What was crisp and clear at 9am is a fuzzy nightmare by 2 pm. ( Got to go see the practitioners of the black arts about that) But heck I enjoy knocking stuff down or ringing the hanging frying pan and what ever else some one comes up with as well as the next person, and I like making tiny little groups at what ever range also. ( satisfies my ego that I put everything together correctly). Chris

  5. #5
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    "You are going to laugh or crucify me for the sacrilege, but let me say that I noticed that at the EBR and RMAC (Big $$$ events) they DON'T use flags!!!...The reason for that is that there is no time to set them up (That is what I've been told)...So I am back to my hunting days where leaves, grass, dust, bird flight patterns, trees, etc. will be my guidelines for wind...I am using flags for my testing of course, but I am starting to practice shooting with no flags in case I can not set them up."

    At RMAC, there was plenty of time to set flags if a person wanted to. I am not sure why there were so few that used them.

    --jdw

  6. #6
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    my guess is that most of the shooters do not shoot official benchrest and do not even have flags



    Quote Originally Posted by jdwarren View Post
    At RMAC, there was plenty of time to set flags if a person wanted to. I am not sure why there were so few that used them.

    --jdw

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by strever View Post
    my guess is that most of the shooters do not shoot official benchrest and do not even have flags
    You are correct. The vast majority of shooters at RMAC were mainly hunters and relatively new shooters and have very little experience with serious benchrest. There were a few who would have used flags, but traveled long distance and did not want to ship them. There were also quite a few who "live" behind their airgun, and feel that they have good enough wind-reading ability to do without flags (and they might even be distracted by them).

    I hesitate to write this, but what the heck: While these guns are very accurate, it is not like shooting a centerfire benchrest gun. If you misread the wind by 1mph, you might loose a point, or two, but it is not likely to take you out of the running. The targets are fairly large, but even with the large amount of wind drift an experienced shooter can still shoot a fairly good score without flags. I hope that does not sound like I am putting down airguns.

    I shot RMAC in 2018, and I used wind flags. My son shot it in 2019, and he used wind flags. When I shoot in the future, I will use flags. I expect that in the future, as more folks get serious about airgun benchrest, more will begin to use flags.

    --jdw

  8. #8
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    Augusta, Maine & Palm Coast, Fl
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    I got involved

    in Smallbore Silhouette last winter and love it. Shooting off ones hind legs at varying distances is a lot of fun. More like real hunting than anything I have ever done.

    Pete

  9. #9
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    Aug 2005
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    Like I said, instant gratification, very addicting. It is a ton of fun, I mostly shoot the pistol versions, when time permits, the pfffft units right up through the loudenboomers at 200 meters. Them long fire sticks go out to 500 meters on your hindlegs. Then there is BPCR where you wait for a bit of breeze to see if you hit your target with that 300gr to 500gr pill.

  10. #10
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    Dec 2017
    Location
    Michigan
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    Well I hope it never goes away(25mbr) one of the main reasons for shooting air rifles and competing in this discipline is I can shoot and practice on my own property! Donít have to pack up and go to a range 30 mi. Away! Very time consuming I still work 50+ hrs a week, I can shoot at a sanctioned club once a month 1hr away, donít have the time/money to travel cross country just to shoot in a long range competition, would love to but not in the cards for me right now, but if the usarb would sanction a 100m event Iím in!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomojo65 View Post
    Well I hope it never goes away(25mbr) one of the main reasons for shooting air rifles and competing in this discipline is I can shoot and practice on my own property! Donít have to pack up and go to a range 30 mi. Away!
    Donít have the time/money to travel cross country just to shoot in a long range competition, would love to but not in the cards for me right now, but if the usarb would sanction a 100m event Iím in!
    I don't want 25 M BR to go away ever but it is not up to what you or I like or shoot at home...I shoot 10 M ISSF rifle and pistol usually alone and competing against my previous best score, I also love to shoot Rapid Fire Pistol...I designed and built an automated target system (Air & solenoid operated system electronically controlled)...In the past I shot this discipline with .22 RF pistols (Pardinis and Hammerlis) back in the 80's and when Feinwerkbau and Steyr introduced their 5 shot magazine semi auto pistols (P-55, P56 and P58) for shooters to practice at home, I acquired a couple of these FWB guns...Rapid Fire Pistol is VERY FUN and challenging (5 shots at turning targets in 8, 6 and 4 seconds) but NOBODY I know shoots rapid fire pistol (air) and where I live (MT and TX) neither Rapid Fire nor ISSF 10 M are popular or shot.

    It is very easy to loose interest in any sport if there is no competition or not sufficient competitors and this is why I believe that 25M BR needs to be promoted, but traditional 25 BR needs to evolve in such a way that other popular disciplines are included according to the trend...If we stay 'Traditionalists" and stick to 2-3 classes and 3 targets per class I believe we will be digging our own grave...As mentioned before: Silhouettes at 40, 50, 60 and 70 (4 at each distance) and pre-qualifying at 75 or 100 M for a final at a 100 Meters/Yards seems to be the trend and some of the most successful clubs in the USA are implementing and combining these disciplines with 25 BR...Some clubs where I've been the last year are combining silhouettes and 100M paper with 25 M BR but the participant chooses one class (HV, LV or Open) and depending on number of shooters and schedule they shoot one or all 3 targets...Some other clubs are not shooting 25M at their events and this is what worries me and I believe it needs our attention.

    Best regards,

    AZ
    Last edited by AZUARO; 08-02-2019 at 09:08 PM.

  12. #12
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    For a number of years I ran the 10 mm indoor air pistol- NRA style had very good participation in that. tried very hard to expand it in to indoor silly wet (winter leagues) had some get interested and I did start a BR league at the same time - I handed off running the leagues to some others due to me no longer having the time- unfortunately other than the pistol the rest went south about that same time I was running the pistol silly wet out to 200 meters & set up the air systems for that also but no takers. ( summer time rifle and pistol) . Our rimfire br group shank from around 20 to 4 over the course of about 5 seasons. This was all during the previous administration in DC- which had a major effect on a lot of things including my own business. Being self-employed I needed to concentrate efforts in that area.

  13. #13
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    I fully understand where you guys are coming from!, but Iím not even close to your level in 25m let alone 100yds, but someday maybe I will? So for now 25m is still a challenge! And most importantly itís still very enjoyable to me...

  14. #14
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    I was thinking and proposed this in a pm to D. Strever about a usarb event along the lines of the center fire F-CLASS style of competition could be various yardages, say 50,75,100yds with no specific caliber restrictions (maybe a ftlbs restriction for safety?)you would shoot prone with or without a rest or bipod no wind flags maybe only one wind sock in place at all times,shoot at steel plates,could be timed for each range? keep costs low fun factor high! Possibly even include a spotter who would work with shooter and this team could be drawn from a hat before match begins?, just ideas being thrown out it would combine a lot of other shooting competitions in to one discipline? May attract some new young blood into the USARB keep it viable for the future?

  15. #15
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    All ideas and implementation are always welcome...

    You mention something very important: "You would shoot prone with or without a rest or bipod" ...The only issue I see for senior shooters is shooting in the prone position, shooting from a bench is what suits most of the above +60 years old...Very few seniors will be able to comfortable shoot prone...If you review the RMAC video of the competition where positions are changed against the clock, you will see that not too many seniors participated...Nevertheless, it is a popular class and if there are enough shooters wanted to participate, it should be shot.

    To start with something I believe that Quail Creek and Phoenix (Both in AZ) are doing it right by shooting 25M and also including Silhouettes at 40-50-60 & 70 and 100M paper...Quail Creek even added pistol silhouettes and paper both at 10 M and the response from members was overwhelming...

    The more shooting options the more attendance...And why not, the more fun you will have.

    Regards,

    AZ

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