Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 73

Thread: 30-30 600 yard build

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Cloudcroft, NM
    Posts
    674

    Poor Bolt Design

    I have delivered the rifle to Nez. We put about 30 rounds through the gun, mainly seeing which powders would be the most usable to achieve velocities between 2700 fps and 2800 fps. The highest velocity achieved was 2876 fps. with AA2520 and 168 gr. Hybrids. That load resulted in a slight click on extraction, so I'm still thinking we just need to settle on 2800 fps. as maximum. At this point, we have achieved full 308 Winchester performance from a 30-30, so we were very pleased.

    Now for the bolt design issue. When I received the rifle from Nez, it had been fitted with a 6.5-284 barrel. The barrel had the typical coned feed ramp that feeds so nice. The bolt had the matching angle on the lugs, but the angle stopped at bolt body diameter of .700", leaving a flat on the end of the bolt head. If you match the contour of the bolt head on the back of the barrel, it will be safe, but you lose the feed ramp, and defeat the whole purpose of a coned bolt. In this case, the cone shape had been cut all the way into the chamber. This left .203" of case head sticking out of the chamber, out of .210" total case head thickness. That's scary to me.

    I re-machined the bolt head to bring the cone all the way into the bolt face diameter. By doing this, the case head is only sticking out about 137". I spoke with Mike Bryant about this matter, and he told me that he has had to deal with the same situation in the past. He also modifies the bolt head the same way I did for safety and maintaining a feed cone on the barrel. The gunsmith who had fit the 6.5-284 barrel is a well know shooter and gunsmith, so please choose your gunsmith wisely. Your life could depend on it. After the conversations I have had with Mike Bryant at the Cotton Ball match in Lubbock, over the phone, and seeing his work in person, I highly recommend his work. I have attached photos and drawings.

    Michael
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Bolt to barrel.jpg 
Views:	128 
Size:	14.4 KB 
ID:	23024   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Bolt.jpg 
Views:	153 
Size:	365.9 KB 
ID:	23025   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Modified Bolt.jpg 
Views:	158 
Size:	21.4 KB 
ID:	23026  

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Poetry, Tex.
    Posts
    6,416
    Quote Originally Posted by mturner View Post
    Exactly what is that? Are those 30-30 cases? Maybe 30-40 Krag. Why no headstamp? Who made them? What size primer? Details on the bolt please.

    Michael

    Sorry I missed this post. These are Federal unstamped brass. I have a lot of it in different calibers. They came from the estate of Red Cornelison. He had a great relationship with Federal several years ago. Red did as tremendous amount of wildcat cartridges.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Williamson County, Texas
    Posts
    286
    Quote Originally Posted by mturner View Post
    I have delivered the rifle to Nez. We put about 30 rounds through the gun, mainly seeing which powders would be the most usable to achieve velocities between 2700 fps and 2800 fps. The highest velocity achieved was 2876 fps. with AA2520 and 168 gr. Hybrids. That load resulted in a slight click on extraction, so I'm still thinking we just need to settle on 2800 fps. as maximum. At this point, we have achieved full 308 Winchester performance from a 30-30, so we were very pleased.

    Now for the bolt design issue. When I received the rifle from Nez, it had been fitted with a 6.5-284 barrel. The barrel had the typical coned feed ramp that feeds so nice. The bolt had the matching angle on the lugs, but the angle stopped at bolt body diameter of .700", leaving a flat on the end of the bolt head. If you match the contour of the bolt head on the back of the barrel, it will be safe, but you lose the feed ramp, and defeat the whole purpose of a coned bolt. In this case, the cone shape had been cut all the way into the chamber. This left .203" of case head sticking out of the chamber, out of .210" total case head thickness. That's scary to me.

    I re-machined the bolt head to bring the cone all the way into the bolt face diameter. By doing this, the case head is only sticking out about 137". I spoke with Mike Bryant about this matter, and he told me that he has had to deal with the same situation in the past. He also modifies the bolt head the same way I did for safety and maintaining a feed cone on the barrel. The gunsmith who had fit the 6.5-284 barrel is a well know shooter and gunsmith, so please choose your gunsmith wisely. Your life could depend on it. After the conversations I have had with Mike Bryant at the Cotton Ball match in Lubbock, over the phone, and seeing his work in person, I highly recommend his work. I have attached photos and drawings.

    Michael
    Michael,

    Thank for taking on this project, and a big Thank You for fixing a potential kaboom due to case failure.

    I am fine tuning the brass as you suggested, will post group test results when available.

    Nez

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    SW.Pa.
    Posts
    903
    Can someone explain to me what is to be gained by using a 30-30 case to push a 168 at 27-2800 for 600 yds? When you can run a 110 SMK at 2900+ out of a 6br Imp. both bullets have the same BC.and at 600 the conditions have a greater affect on them than raw accuracy but the 110 is shooting in the low .1's @ 100..... jim

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Williamson County, Texas
    Posts
    286
    Quote Originally Posted by jim1K View Post
    Can someone explain to me what is to be gained by using a 30-30 case to push a 168 at 27-2800 for 600 yds? When you can run a 110 SMK at 2900+ out of a 6br Imp. both bullets have the same BC.and at 600 the conditions have a greater affect on them than raw accuracy but the 110 is shooting in the low .1's @ 100..... jim
    Be different. Anybody can build a 6BRXYZ

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Poetry, Tex.
    Posts
    6,416
    Quote Originally Posted by jim1K View Post
    Can someone explain to me what is to be gained by using a 30-30 case to push a 168 at 27-2800 for 600 yds? When you can run a 110 SMK at 2900+ out of a 6br Imp. both bullets have the same BC.and at 600 the conditions have a greater affect on them than raw accuracy but the 110 is shooting in the low .1's @ 100..... jim
    Jim, what will you do at a match and a 30-30 kicks your butt?

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Williamson County, Texas
    Posts
    286
    Quote Originally Posted by jim1K View Post
    Can someone explain to me what is to be gained by using a 30-30 case to push a 168 at 27-2800 for 600 yds? When you can run a 110 SMK at 2900+ out of a 6br Imp. both bullets have the same BC.and at 600 the conditions have a greater affect on them than raw accuracy but the 110 is shooting in the low .1's @ 100..... jim
    Jim,

    I was quite in a hurry when I responded. The 6MMs have shown some impressive performances in the line. Along with the 6.5s, they are a dominant force on the 600 yard line. However, when you put a sling on and shoot on your elbow, the game changes. Here is an example, Stacey is a multiple range record holder at Bayou Rifles with his bolt gun, a 6mm with unlimited power scope, but a lowly 223 shooter, with 20 inch barrel, 4.5X scope took him to a good match. In fact out Xed him. Remember the .224 bullets are nowhere near the BC of the 6s.

    " ANY RIFLE/ANY SIGHT Tournament Congratulations to STACEY TAMULINAS for winning the ANY RIFLE/ ANY SIGHT Tournament with a 1191-59X

    SERVICE RIFLE Tournament Congratulations to GREG TROXELL for winning the SERVICE RIFLE Tournament with a 1190-62X.

    Back to the 30-30. Michael managed to showcase the capability of the 30-30 in short range stool shooting in both group and score shooting. His successes with the 30-30 inspired me to have him build me one. I don't have the know how nor the correct reamer for the 30-30, Michael does, so I asked him if he were interested in doing my project. I am glad he did. Now, if I could even get close (even twice or three times as large) to the group he shot with his 30-30 in testing, I would be happy to shoot it either sling or F Class.

    At the end of the day, you know the saying about the Indian and his arrow.....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	30-30 group.jpg 
Views:	87 
Size:	103.3 KB 
ID:	23027  

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Poetry, Tex.
    Posts
    6,416
    Quote Originally Posted by NezRongero View Post
    Jim,

    I was quite in a hurry when I responded. The 6MMs have shown some impressive performances in the line. Along with the 6.5s, they are a dominant force on the 600 yard line. However, when you put a sling on and shoot on your elbow, the game changes. Here is an example, Stacey is a multiple range record holder at Bayou Rifles with his bolt gun, a 6mm with unlimited power scope, but a lowly 223 shooter, with 20 inch barrel, 4.5X scope took him to a good match. In fact out Xed him. Remember the .224 bullets are nowhere near the BC of the 6s.

    " ANY RIFLE/ANY SIGHT Tournament Congratulations to STACEY TAMULINAS for winning the ANY RIFLE/ ANY SIGHT Tournament with a 1191-59X

    SERVICE RIFLE Tournament Congratulations to GREG TROXELL for winning the SERVICE RIFLE Tournament with a 1190-62X.

    Back to the 30-30. Michael managed to showcase the capability of the 30-30 in short range stool shooting in both group and score shooting. His successes with the 30-30 inspired me to have him build me one. I don't have the know how nor the correct reamer for the 30-30, Michael does, so I asked him if he were interested in doing my project. I am glad he did. Now, if I could even get close (even twice or three times as large) to the group he shot with his 30-30 in testing, I would be happy to shoot it either sling or F Class.

    At the end of the day, you know the saying about the Indian and his arrow.....

    Chuckle chuckle, you will have a load of fun with it Nez!

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    SW.Pa.
    Posts
    903
    Quote Originally Posted by Butch Lambert View Post
    Chuckle chuckle, you will have a load of fun with it Nez!
    Butch, First it ain't going to happen..... Second when the wind hits that baby it will go for a ride, I hope to see the match reports with a sub 1" agg. and maybe Bart better get ready when it shoots in a sub .3 five shot 50... Jim

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    SW.Pa.
    Posts
    903
    Quote Originally Posted by NezRongero View Post
    Jim,

    I was quite in a hurry when I responded. The 6MMs have shown some impressive performances in the line. Along with the 6.5s, they are a dominant force on the 600 yard line. However, when you put a sling on and shoot on your elbow, the game changes. Here is an example, Stacey is a multiple range record holder at Bayou Rifles with his bolt gun, a 6mm with unlimited power scope, but a lowly 223 shooter, with 20 inch barrel, 4.5X scope took him to a good match. In fact out Xed him. Remember the .224 bullets are nowhere near the BC of the 6s.

    " ANY RIFLE/ANY SIGHT Tournament Congratulations to STACEY TAMULINAS for winning the ANY RIFLE/ ANY SIGHT Tournament with a 1191-59X

    SERVICE RIFLE Tournament Congratulations to GREG TROXELL for winning the SERVICE RIFLE Tournament with a 1190-62X.

    Back to the 30-30. Michael managed to showcase the capability of the 30-30 in short range stool shooting in both group and score shooting. His successes with the 30-30 inspired me to have him build me one. I don't have the know how nor the correct reamer for the 30-30, Michael does, so I asked him if he were interested in doing my project. I am glad he did. Now, if I could even get close (even twice or three times as large) to the group he shot with his 30-30 in testing, I would be happy to shoot it either sling or F Class.

    At the end of the day, you know the saying about the Indian and his arrow.....

    When you said 600 I automatically was 600 BR., now I see you are a sling shooter. I have been there but now I can't do that anymore, so have fun with it I still think you you would be better off with a 6mm, 2-3" groups are common at 1000 now..... jim

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Poetry, Tex.
    Posts
    6,416
    Quote Originally Posted by jim1K View Post
    When you said 600 I automatically was 600 BR., now I see you are a sling shooter. I have been there but now I can't do that anymore, so have fun with it I still think you you would be better off with a 6mm, 2-3" groups are common at 1000 now..... jim
    Jim, why a 6bra or somesuch? A 30-30 will be a lot more satisfying. Don't sell it short.
    Oh Jim, ask Nez about shooting 1000 yds with a M14 and open sights.

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Cloudcroft, NM
    Posts
    674
    Jim,

    Your argument about the 30-30 coming up short when compared to other long range cartridges is certainly a fair comparison, but here is the real question. Should we stop using the 308 Winchester also? A 30-06 will make more energy. How about the 300 Win Mag? A 300 Ultra Mag will kick it's butt in long range performance. The story goes on and on. There is always somebody with a flatter shooting and better wind bucking cartridge. The best way to put this project in perspective is simple. I have won approximately 100 trophies shooting the 30-30 against the 6 PPC in group and score. I have reached over 3000 ft lbs of energy with the 30-30, or to put it more simply, I have duplicated the energy of the 30-06 book loads, and did so using 20 grains less powder.

    I once took second place at 200 yards shooting a 30-378 Weatherby custom long range elk rifle. I was shooting against the 6 PPC for score. That day we had 30 mph winds, and my 200 gr Sierra at 3500 fps cut through the wind like magic hitting the 1" 10 ring 8 out of ten times. The best three shot group from that rifle was .190" at 200 yards. This was my hunting rifle at about 11 pounds scoped. Basically all I'm saying is that I understand about getting things done with more horsepower. Here we are just substituting a 30-30 in place of the 308 Winchester, and getting the same velocity. How many times have you seen a 30-30 that can stay above the speed of sound out to 1400 yards? I can do that with the 215 gr Berger Hybrid in a 30-30. The typical 30-30 with a 150 gr flat nose bullet goes subsonic at 400 yards. The supersonic range of the 30-30 is more than tripled with bullet selection, barrel length and high pressure.

    Our whole sport is about reaching the peak performance we can with a given cartridge. Many put all their efforts into the 6 PPC. Some focus on mid and long range cartridges. When I die, I will know that I got more accuracy and range out of the 30-30 than anyone. At 1000 ft pounds of energy at 1000 yards, the 30-30 hits almost as hard at 1000 yards as a 44 magnum at the muzzle. How many people would have ever thought it possible to knock down an elk at 1000 yards with a 30-30?

    Now for the comment about the bullet taking a "ride" when the wind hits it. They all do, but here is how much it drifts in comparison to a 6mm 105gr Berger hybrid at 3000 fps at 600 yards.

    6mm 105 gr. Hybrid 3000 fps - 21.96"

    30 cal. 168 gr. Hybrid at 2800 fps. - 25.64"

    30 cal. 215 gr. Hybrid at 2500 fps. - 21.46" (oh wow, how did a 30-30 drift .5" less at 600 yards than a 105 gr hybrid at 3000 fps.)

    You can run a heavier 6mm bullet like a 115 gr. I can run a heavier bullet also. The 168 gr. bullet is lighter for a 30 caliber than the 105 gr. is for a 6mm. The 215 gr. is a more fair comparison.

    Calculations all made at 85 degrees and sea level with a 10 mph crosswind. Berger Bullets calculator.

    Michael
    Last edited by mturner; 10-26-2019 at 12:11 AM.

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    south Florida
    Posts
    335
    This is the best read on a gun forum I've seen in years. Keep up the experimenting!!!!!! keep posting it here

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Poetry, Tex.
    Posts
    6,416
    Nez and Michael didn't fall off the turnip truck.

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Cloudcroft, NM
    Posts
    674

    Getting Even More

    I decided to maximize the long range wind bucking ability of 6mm and 30-30. Calculations were done using the highest BC readily available bullets. For the 6mm, I used the Sierra 110 gr. and a G7 BC of .310 at 2900 fps. For the 30, I used the Hornady 250 gr. A Tip with a G7 BC of .442 at 2325 fps.

    Both were calculated at sea level, and at Raton. The 30-30 is a neck turned only version. It would be more fair if I were to use the 30-30 Turner Improved version. It holds 47.5 gr. of LT30 level full, compared to 43.0 gr. of LT30 for the standard 30-30, for a capacity increase of 4.5 gr. or 10.5%. By using Nosler brass, the LT30 capacities jump to 44.5 gr. and 49.0 gr. I would estimate the velocity of the 250 gr. bullet at 2450 fps. for the improved version. I currently only have shorter barrels chambered for the improved version.

    With the standard 30-30, the supersonic range is 1550 yards at sea level. At Raton (6500 ft.), I was able to keep the 30-30 supersonic all the way to 2000 yards. The 600 yard drift came in at 18.55" for sea level and 13.88" for Raton.

    With the 6mm, the supersonic range is 1500 yards at sea level. At Raton (6500 ft.), the supersonic range for the 6mm is 1950 yards. The 600 yard drift came in at 20.06" for sea level and 14.87" for Raton.

    Maybe the 6BRX has a little more than I have given it. I know I can get more out of my improved version of the 30-30.

    See range cards below. If anyone can find an error with any of my numbers, please let me know. If you have any doubts concerning the velocities I used for the 30-30, let me know. I have added a photo of the improved 30-30. By using an estimated velocity of 2450 fps. on the improved version, the maximum supersonic range at sea level is 1700 yards. The 600 yard drift is 17.15".

    Jim, I want to thank you for questioning the performance of the 30-30. I have found even more performance that I had no idea existed.

    Michael
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	6mm 110 gr. Sea Level.jpg 
Views:	54 
Size:	57.3 KB 
ID:	23032   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	6mm 110 gr. Raton.jpg 
Views:	36 
Size:	58.8 KB 
ID:	23033   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	30-30 250 gr. Sea Level.jpg 
Views:	37 
Size:	59.0 KB 
ID:	23034   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	30-30 250 gr. Raton.jpg 
Views:	42 
Size:	59.1 KB 
ID:	23035   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	30-30 Turner Improved.jpg 
Views:	72 
Size:	30.4 KB 
ID:	23040  
    Last edited by mturner; 10-26-2019 at 03:30 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •