Rimfire Benchrest rifles (Calfee SPEC rifles)

[stiller]

... On another RFBR site there are entire threads dedicated to posting hate comments about Calfee. The moderator doesn't take these personal attack threads down because he knows on that site you have to go along to get along. Kiss the ring and swear your hatred for Calfee to be a member of the group. Now being on that site or hating one particular person doesn't by definition make you a hater. But just as the democratic party went after Trump they didn't become true haters until they started going after many of the people that were associated with Trump. ...TKH

If you are taking about my site (RA), my membership requirements are that you are interested in rimfire. I don't like pulling threads because it is important for the masses to see everything about a poster, good and bad. The statement "Kiss the ring and swear your hatred for Calfee to be a member of the group" is offensive and ridiculous. People put up their opinions and everyone is free to have one. In the end they must live with it one way or the other.

I think it is interesting how you don't feel the same way about WWA. Calfee calls me out by name (me or my company) at least once a day in a derogatory or belittling manner. Anytime anyone has a differing opinion they are either completely banned or sneaky banned (can still post but only they can see it). I guess that is ok though. I have never been allowed to participate on that site and offer a differing opinion though. I can't imagine how insecure he must be to not even want to have a discussion of any topic that may have a differing opinion. All he ever does is make a statement, berate other people's products and never really give any real explanation or data to support his position

I have known you quite a long time and have always thought of you to be a honest and straight forward type of person. Your last post really makes me question that.

[tim]

This thread has nearly 200K views and contains a lot of information I don't have the energy to re-create so I'll pick my words carefully. I don't want to say anything that would cause the thread to be deleted or locked. Additionally, I don't want to alienate you, or any other person in our very small RFBR community.

But facts are facts and even in our currently convoluted country they should count for something.

Calfee posts on one site only. No person is forced or required to read his threads. That is a choice you make yourself. If you read his comments and get upset about it, that is on you. No one else.

You asked why I used the word haters. It is not a pretty word, but one used often to describe exactly what I was trying to describe.

On another RFBR site there are entire threads dedicated to posting hate comments about Calfee. The moderator doesn't take these personal attack threads down because he knows on that site you have to go along to get along. Kiss the ring and swear your hatred for Calfee to be a member of the group. Now being on that site or hating one particular person doesn't by definition make you a hater. But just as the democratic party went after Trump they didn't become true haters until they started going after many of the people that were associated with Trump.

Now let us go back to my post on this thread. I pointed out Calfee had a lot of experience with both SAP and PAS actions and that experience is where he developed his beliefs.

Your post came back with the fan-boy comment that was personal and highly offensive. You say it's not personal and I guess we can agree to disagree.

I would like to think RFBR forums can be a place where information can be shared without the fear of being personally attacked.

I recall a big tournament in New York that you served as match director and overall coordinator. You pulled it off without a hitch and everyone had a great time. You have given a lot to this sport that many will never recognize, but I'm sure you did it not for recognition, but for your love of the sport.

National level RFBR has provided me many positive experiences. I've had the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat many times and I'm thankful for it all.

It makes me sad to see what these forums have become. Many express the opinion that this crap is only on the forums.

I hope that is true, if it gets so one can't attend National matches for fear of being attacked. We will be back to where we were before sanctioning bodies were created. Local clubs where old buddies shoot together and enjoy each other's company.

If you look around many have already done that.

TKH

Tony,
I meant the Fanboy entirely light hearted and sarcastic. As you know a bit of sarcasm is my default response and I sincerely hope you take it in that spirit but recognize an entirely opposite opinion does not by default make you a hater.

[tonykharper]

If you are taking about my site (RA), my membership requirements are that you are interested in rimfire. I don't like pulling threads because it is important for the masses to see everything about a poster, good and bad. The statement "Kiss the ring and swear your hatred for Calfee to be a member of the group" is offensive and ridiculous. People put up their opinions and everyone is free to have one. In the end they must live with it one way or the other.

I think it is interesting how you don't feel the same way about WWA. Calfee calls me out by name (me or my company) at least once a day in a derogatory or belittling manner. Anytime anyone has a differing opinion they are either completely banned or sneaky banned (can still post but only they can see it). I guess that is ok though. I have never been allowed to participate on that site and offer a differing opinion though. I can't imagine how insecure he must be to not even want to have a discussion of any topic that may have a differing opinion. All he ever does is make a statement, berate other people's products and never really give any real explanation or data to support his position

I have known you quite a long time and have always thought of you to be a honest and straight forward type of person. Your last post really makes me question that.

You do know how I feel about Calfee riding you over the SAP/PAS thing, you responded to the post I made asking him not to do it. I told him and anyone reading it was harassment. If I recall you were offended by that post too.

I know nothing about his or your banning policy. I do know if it was my site, personal attacks of any kind would not be allowed, and I would not hesitate to ban those that chose to do it. Our forums and our matches would be better without them.

I have stated many times the value you bring to our sport and the quality of your products, but because I refuse to defame Calfee you have always kept me and others like me out of your circle. You can deny all you want but that is certainly the way it feels. Your circle is your circle, and you are free to choose who or whom you want there.

I fully realize you need me for nothing, but I do on occasion need your products. I have nothing to gain from making this post and a lot to lose but at some point, someone has to call a spade a spade, by the way, and that is in no way a racist remark.

As I said in my post, no one has to read Calfee, and no one should let his post offend. If they do they bring it on themselves.

You can have your opinion, but I would suggest for the good of the sport and those that shoot it, you rise above it, get back to putting out useful post and products rather than making personal attacks. That suggestion is for Bill to, but he doesn't put out products anymore.

TKH

[stiller]

..... I know nothing about his or your banning policy. I do know if it was my site, personal attacks of any kind would not be allowed, and I would not hesitate to ban those that chose to do it. Our forums and our matches would be better without them.

I have stated many times the value you bring to our sport and the quality of your products, but because I refuse to defame Calfee you have always kept me and others like me out of your circle. You can deny all you want but that is certainly the way it feels. Your circle is your circle, and you are free to choose who or whom you want there.

I fully realize you need me for nothing, but I do on occasion need your products. I have nothing to gain from making this post and a lot to lose but at some point, someone has to call a spade a spade, by the way, and that is in no way a racist remark. ....TKH

I have banned (actually Hozzie has) about 3 people in our time. They were all so over the top, it was necessary I guess. I am the kind of guy what will let people act the way they do. One good thing about free speech is that you can say most anything you want. The caveat is that you have to live up to those consequences too. Kaepernick seems like a good example. My famous saying is "its always easier to bury someone in the grave they dug themselves". That has happened on various occasions here. I don't want to be the judge and jury on allowing or not allowing people to voice their opinion. IF I always do, I am no better than Bill in not letting others voice their opinion.

If you feel excluded from my "circle", I am sorry. I really didn't know I had a circle, but you are definitely not excluded. You are welcome to anything we sell but you need to talk to Dan at PQP about it as he has taken over all my production and sales. You have always liked the Turbo style actions and I have never thought you would want any actions from me. My jabs at Calfee are limited to him after he has relentlessly hammered on me. I don't have any animosity toward you or any Calfee guys. I am really pretty good friends with most of them.

I have some pretty close friends that "call me out" if they feel I am doing something wrong or out of place. James Pappas used to call me and ask if stuff he posted was going too far. I usually told him if he is calling me, probably so. If anyone really calls Bill their friend, they owe it to him to do the same. It doesn't seem that he has anyone like that or just refuses to listen to them I guess. Unfortunately his statements are listened to by newer and some older shooters. I am always trying to explain to people that call me about the action differences and having to defend my products due to this. It just really gets old and is not good for the sport overall.

[tonykharper]

I have banned (actually Hozzie has) about 3 people in our time. They were all so over the top, it was necessary I guess. I am the kind of guy what will let people act the way they do. One good thing about free speech is that you can say most anything you want. The caveat is that you have to live up to those consequences too. Kaepernick seems like a good example. My famous saying is "its always easier to bury someone in the grave they dug themselves". That has happened on various occasions here. I don't want to be the judge and jury on allowing or not allowing people to voice their opinion. IF I always do, I am no better than Bill in not letting others voice their opinion.

If you feel excluded from my "circle", I am sorry. I really didn't know I had a circle, but you are definitely not excluded. You are welcome to anything we sell but you need to talk to Dan at PQP about it as he has taken over all my production and sales. You have always liked the Turbo style actions and I have never thought you would want any actions from me. My jabs at Calfee are limited to him after he has relentlessly hammered on me. I don't have any animosity toward you or any Calfee guys. I am really pretty good friends with most of them.

I have some pretty close friends that "call me out" if they feel I am doing something wrong or out of place. James Pappas used to call me and ask if stuff he posted was going too far. I usually told him if he is calling me, probably so. If anyone really calls Bill their friend, they owe it to him to do the same. It doesn't seem that he has anyone like that or just refuses to listen to them I guess. Unfortunately, his statements are listened to by newer and some older shooters. I am always trying to explain to people that call me about the action differences and having to defend my products due to this. It just really gets old and is not good for the sport overall.

AS much as I would like to be done with this, I just can't let it stand where you have left it.

Free speech and hate speech are quite different things. Stating opinions with disagreement and personal attacks are also quite different things.

The exchange of information with advancement of knowledge can only occur when both parties show a certain level of respect for each other. Name calling breaks down any forward progress.

Leadership is never easy and quite often makes one less than popular, but it is always required when you are in a position of authority or power. Sometimes you can assign this job to an administrator, but when the administrator starts name calling you have to take back leadership.

I too am concerned about new shooters and their impression they get when they read our forums. If they see this behavior being presented or condoned, they will follow with like behavior.

This is a shooting sport, and we all need to act like adults. Allowing people to run amuck until they crash isn't leadership.

As for being a friend to Bill and calling him out when I think he goes too far mostly falls on deaf ears. But everyone has the ability to not read his writings. He is only on one site. The trouble is he has a great deal of knowledge and experience. If one wants to gain from that you have to sift through all the info and find the pearls. It takes effort but can be done.

I understand how you feel about explaining things over and over that really shouldn't be questioned but that is the nature of some shooters. We were all there at one time. If you are truly interested, you want to know what you don't know. But many times, with rimfire there is no concrete answer.

I hope we get to the point where every discussion can go like your recent discussion about turning down the outside of a barrel and the inside diameter changing. No name calling, only your experience vs another's discussed. Leaving it to the readers to follow which opinion they want to use.

I hope I've made my case and it has the desired effect. I post this with all due respect, and I like others appreciate all you do and have done for our sport.

TKH

[stiller]

Tony, I am kind of at a loss here as to what you want from me. I have never talked bad about you or anything that you do. I honestly don't feel I have really ever talked bad about anyone. If posters on RA post opinions, then they do. Just because I don't remove every one doesn't also mean I agree with them. I really think HATE SPEECH is kind of an exaggeration of the kind of stuff that is on there at times. It's not any more hate speech that what I see on WWA for sure. When it comes to Calfee, I feel most anything I post in pretty much in self defense if it is derogatory.

Let me ask you a question. You consider yourself a gunsmith and accomplished shooter. What would you do if a respected party in RFBR posted at least once a day about how you don't know what you are doing, your products are sub par and will never be any good? In addition tell you to blindly follow a path you know to be wrong with absolutely no hard reasons or data. Then go on to your other peers, customers and whomever will listen to tell you to do the above. Keep in mind that you can never ask a question, refute the statement or poise your own opinion because you cannot participate on the forum. And to even make it tougher, anyone that may stick up for you there gets banned outright or sneaky banned.

What would you do? You are ex military and seem to have a pride in your work and abilities. Do you just lie down and accept all that is said? Never say a word to him or anyone about it? Never post as to why you are right and he is wrong. Tony, what would you do and what would your advise be for that? What would you tell your loved ones or family to do in situations like that?

[tonykharper]

Tony, I am kind of at a loss here as to what you want from me. I have never talked bad about you or anything that you do. I honestly don't feel I have really ever talked bad about anyone. If posters on RA post opinions, then they do. Just because I don't remove every one doesn't also mean I agree with them. I really think HATE SPEECH is kind of an exaggeration of the kind of stuff that is on there at times. It's not any more hate speech that what I see on WWA for sure. When it comes to Calfee, I feel most anything I post in pretty much in self defense if it is derogatory.

Let me ask you a question. You consider yourself a gunsmith and accomplished shooter. What would you do if a respected party in RFBR posted at least once a day about how you don't know what you are doing, your products are sub par and will never be any good? In addition tell you to blindly follow a path you know to be wrong with absolutely no hard reasons or data. Then go on to your other peers, customers and whomever will listen to tell you to do the above. Keep in mind that you can never ask a question, refute the statement or poise your own opinion because you cannot participate on the forum. And to even make it tougher, anyone that may stick up for you there gets banned outright or sneaky banned.

What would you do? You are ex military and seem to have a pride in your work and abilities. Do you just lie down and accept all that is said? Never say a word to him or anyone about it? Never post as to why you are right and he is wrong. Tony, what would you do and what would your advise be for that? What would you tell your loved ones or family to do in situations like that?

I really don't consider myself a gunsmith although I've developed skills and knowledge about a very small area of gunsmithing. There is an expression used in the military about specialist vs generalist.

A generalist has knowledge a mile wide but an inch deep, whereas a specialist has knowledge an inch wide but a mile deep. Hopefully I'm the latter.

What to do about the Calfee situation. First, I can only imagine how it would be to be constantly harassed by anyone over anything. I get pissed off when people knowingly mis represent my shooting record. In most cases I'm able to ignore it but it isn't a thing I have to deal with on a regular basis thank God.

I only see two choices: Continue to make your case for the things you know from your experience. Or put up a sticky on your site and advise everyone that there will be no discussion or mention of Bill Calfee. The first occurrence will result in a week's ban, the second occurrence will result in a month ban, the third time and you are out.

The reason for the giving multiple chances are many people don't know, or understand, this situation and they should be given the opportunity to learn before being eliminated from sharing in the exchange of ideas concerning RFBR.

I know many have a need to have the last word in these exchanges. I offer that to you as I really want to be done with this.

The longer this exchange goes on the more people will pick a side and that is detrimental to our sport. Thank you for giving this topic your attention. Let's get back to RFBR.

TKH

[George Atkins]

Now back to my question. Why does the MD-PAS pistol that Mr. Calfee built and still owns, not have a name?

[tonykharper]

Now back to my question. Why does the MD-PAS pistol that Mr. Calfee built and still owns, not have a name?

George,

I don't know. Maybe someone with more info will post an answer.

TKH

[tim]

Do ANY pistols have names?

[George Atkins]

Do ANY pistols have names?

I just figured that one would, most of the XP22's he built were numbered. At least that is what I read over the years. Kinda gets to what Stiller said, only a few select people are welcomed on his site, so asking directly is out of the question. I assume that the rifle names came mostly from the owners they were built for, with a few exceptions i.e. LBK, Jimmy Jack.... I read Mr. Calfee's site, I find it amusing that when he wants to know something, he starts a thread about it, then has Paul find out the answer. Sites like this were created for passing along information, ideas and general knowledge of shooting sports. It's really sad, when thread like this run off in a direction, that just brings anger and hard feelings. We all mostly enjoy a little smack talk once in a while, it's good for the sport, up until it gets personal. Mr. Stiller manufactures and smiths a great product, Mr.Calfee has smithed some great rifles. Two different types of actions, both very capable of doing what they were intended to do.

[Hozzie]

Tony, I don't follow every thread in detail sometimes so may not catch some things, but if there is something you feel is egregious on RA, by all means use the 'report' function to flag a post.

I am usually accused of over-moderating, but will say I am also not going to ban or delete posts unless it is somewhat over the top. Reading sites goes both ways. If someone is offended by what is posted on RA, they don't have to read it.

I am pretty reasonable. If anyone sees something they think is over the top, report it and I will look at it (on RA of course).

Jamie

[tonykharper]

Tony, I don't follow every thread in detail sometimes so may not catch some things, but if there is something you feel is egregious on RA, by all means use the 'report' function to flag a post.

I am usually accused of over-moderating, but will say I am also not going to ban or delete posts unless it is somewhat over the top. Reading sites goes both ways. If someone is offended by what is posted on RA, they don't have to read it.

I am pretty reasonable. If anyone sees something they think is over the top, report it and I will look at it (on RA of course).

Jamie

Hozzie,

If you don't think name calling and personal attacks are egregious, I'm sure I can't convince you.

And no, attacks from the other side, perhaps in a more subtle and artful manner are no better and should not be allowed either.

Two wrongs never make a right. I hoped if one side quits responding perhaps the attacks will lose value and be discontinued.

I've reached out to both sides but as I've been informed, I'm pi$$ing in the wind.

TKH

[stiller]

...
On another RFBR site there are entire threads dedicated to posting hate comments about Calfee. The moderator doesn't take these personal attack threads down because he knows on that site you have to go along to get along. Kiss the ring and swear your hatred for Calfee to be a member of the group. Now being on that site or hating one particular person doesn't by definition make you a hater. But just as the democratic party went after Trump they didn't become true haters until they started going after many of the people that were associated with Trump. ....TKH

Tony, the ONLY reason I even responded is because of your statement above. Is that statement not just an example of what you are complaining about? I felt compelled to defend RA and all of it's members. End of story for me.

BTW, attacks from WWA are neither artful or more subtle.

[tonykharper]

Tony, the ONLY reason I even responded is because of your statement above. Is that statement not just an example of what you are complaining about? I felt compelled to defend RA and all of it's members. End of story for me.

BTW, attacks from WWA are neither artful or more subtle.

To answer your question, no, it is not. I stated a fact. One you didn't like, but a fact.

The kissing the ring comment may have been over the top. But I don't think that is what motivated you.

The word hater probably did that. But again, I don't know another word that better describes the post.

I'm not the only person to label those threads as hater speech.

At this point I don't think either of you are going to hear what I'm trying to say.

For this story to end is all I wanted.

TKH