Turbo bolt w/Hall firing pin

[BRS1965]

About two weeks ago I posted a description of Allen Hall's design of a firing pin for Turbo rifles along with the advantages I felt it had. Yesterday I shot the IR50/50 match at Gateway in Jacksonville, FL with my Eck Turbo heavy gun after installing the Hall firing pin. In the 13.5lb match I tied the range record with a 250-23X. I realize this is just one match and more time may be needed to prove Allen's design, but to say I'm a happy customer would be a understatement.

Bill Schertz
Ocala, FL

 

[Gene Beggs]

Hmmmmm,,

About two weeks ago I posted a description of Allen Hall's design of a firing pin for Turbo rifles along with the advantages I felt it had. Yesterday I shot the IR50/50 match at Gateway in Jacksonville, FL with my Eck Turbo heavy gun after installing the Hall firing pin. In the 13.5lb match I tied the range record with a 250-23X. I realize this is just one match and more time may be needed to prove Allen's design, but to say I'm a happy customer would be a understatement.

Bill Schertz
Ocala, FL

,,,wonder what Calfee would think and say about this?

I've owned and shot both late model Turbo and Hall actions which in my opinion were at opposite ends of the ignition/firing pin controversy. Alan Hall believes in 'light and fast'; Calfee swears by heavy and slow.

Do you suppose one works just as well as the other? Bill's experience above with the Hall firing pin in his Turbo action sure makes you wonder; huh?

Gene Beggs

 

[Pete Wass]

Didn't ya know Bill

That them light pins don't work? Why, you must have some sort of Black Magic following you around. I believe I noticed a 40X with one of those pins in it @ last year's Crawfish. Musta been a "speriment" back then, eh? See you next month, mebby.

Pete

 

[Slick Willy]

Allan is Chasing his Tail

,,,

I've owned and shot both late model Turbo and Hall actions which in my opinion were at opposite ends of the ignition/firing pin controversy. Alan Hall believes in 'light and fast'; Calfee swears by heavy and slow.

Do you suppose one works just as well as the other? Bill's experience above with the Hall firing pin in his Turbo action sure makes you wonder; huh?

Gene Beggs

Gene , Big Time RFBR is dominated by the Turbo Style Actions , I currently own 4 Halls ( Would sell any of them but no takers unless I gave them away) and numerous Turbos and I can attest that Allan is way off base ,and needs to do exactly the opposite of what he is doing ,he should be working on a heavy FP for his Halls where they can get competitive and quit trying to fix something that ain`t broke, How many Halls are winning anything???? ZERO The Halls need desperate attention to be competitive and there is too many trees in the forest for Allan to see WTF is going on! I have had this conversation with Allan as has many others ,he is deaf! Nobody that shoots ARA/PSL would touch something as a light FP to put into the Turbo Type action unless they want to be a bottom feeder with those style actions ! JTFM

 

[William Smith]

Winning!

Gene , Big Time RFBR is dominated by the Turbo Style Actions , I currently own 4 Halls ( Would sell any of them but no takers unless I gave them away) and numerous Turbos and I can attest that Allan is way off base ,and needs to do exactly the opposite of what he is doing ,he should be working on a heavy FP for his Halls where they can get competitive and quit trying to fix something that ain`t broke, How many Halls are winning anything???? ZERO The Halls need desperate attention to be competitive and there is too many trees in the forest for Allan to see WTF is going on! I have had this conversation with Allan as has many others ,he is deaf! Nobody that shoots ARA/PSL would touch something as a light FP to put into the Turbo Type action unless they want to be a bottom feeder with those style actions ! JTFM

Slick, Not sure that I'm in the same league as all you big time RFBR shooters are, however, I did win the Ga. State IR50/50, 10.5 Lb. class this year shooting a Hall, 250-20X. Didn't think that was to bad for an old beat up retired, 72 year old Navy Senior Chief. But I'll keep trying. Thumper

 

[mwezell]

About two weeks ago I posted a description of Allen Hall's design of a firing pin for Turbo rifles along with the advantages I felt it had. Yesterday I shot the IR50/50 match at Gateway in Jacksonville, FL with my Eck Turbo heavy gun after installing the Hall firing pin. In the 13.5lb match I tied the range record with a 250-23X. I realize this is just one match and more time may be needed to prove Allen's design, but to say I'm a happy customer would be a understatement.

Bill Schertz
Ocala, FL

A very fine 250-23x score, a range record, and I assume you won...probably beating actions of several makes in the process?

 

[Slick Willy]

Congratulations!

Slick, Not sure that I'm in the same league as all you big time RFBR shooters are, however, I did win the Ga. State IR50/50, 10.5 Lb. class this year shooting a Hall, 250-20X. Didn't think that was to bad for an old beat up retired, 72 year old Navy Senior Chief. But I'll keep trying. Thumper

Not too Bad Thumper, keep on killing them!

 

[tim]

Slick, Not sure that I'm in the same league as all you big time RFBR shooters are, however, I did win the Ga. State IR50/50, 10.5 Lb. class this year shooting a Hall, 250-20X. Didn't think that was to bad for an old beat up retired, 72 year old Navy Senior Chief. But I'll keep trying. Thumper

You have a very good point here. But......there's always a but that should be considered. These have always been good actions, I have owned them, I have shot them with and without altered ignition, I have seen them do well.
There are two issues IMHO. The slower/mass driven systems seem to be more consistant over a variety of conditions and as the ignition components in the bolt wear, things change and so do many guns, they become erratic, the other systems don't seem to be subject to this.
This can't be proven......there is no hard, empirical data, but most top shooters don't change up on a whim and stuff gets used that gets the job done most often.

 

[William Smith]

Points to Ponder!

Tim,
I think you have hit on a valid point in that wear and tear seem to change the functionality of the system over it's life-span. But here again, there are people who just seem to go their own way and win with actions and systems that are not considered the main benchmark that "should be used", "can't be surpassed", "more consistent", etc. Consider, Mike Cameron with a Suhl, Joe Besche with an Annie, as it would seem, these two gentlemen put the shooter back into the equation for winning. Best equipment in the world can't function without an operator. I think that at times we put to much value in making equipment decisions based on the proverb of "it's what everyone else is using". JMHO! Thumper

 

[tim]

I hear you. Most of the HOF points i ever earned were behind a Swindlehurst, and my primary sporter is a 54. Still they, like the two mentioned, are the exceptions.
Anyway, that being said, have a nice Xmas.

 

[Doug]

Thks Bill

Well gosh darn it!!
Thumper made a post that made sense!
(Maybe other shooters will read between the lines?)
Thanks Bill

 

[Pete Wass]

Leaders and followers

Tim,
I think you have hit on a valid point in that wear and tear seem to change the functionality of the system over it's life-span. But here again, there are people who just seem to go their own way and win with actions and systems that are not considered the main benchmark that "should be used", "can't be surpassed", "more consistent", etc. Consider, Mike Cameron with a Suhl, Joe Besche with an Annie, as it would seem, these two gentlemen put the shooter back into the equation for winning. Best equipment in the world can't function without an operator. I think that at times we put to much value in making equipment decisions based on the proverb of "it's what everyone else is using". JMHO! Thumper

Well said Bill, the entire Benchrest Sports are afflicted by too many followers; too many people who follow the wrong gods home,(stolen from an Eagles song) from my experience. Great rifles are mostly about barrels and not a lot else, IMHO.

Pete

 

[burtona]

Well said Bill, the entire Benchrest Sports are afflicted by too many followers; too many people who follow the wrong gods home,(stolen from an Eagles song) from my experience. Great rifles are mostly about barrels and not a lot else, IMHO.

Pete

+1

 

[Don Stith]

Bill Schertz
Glad to see you are still playing the rimfire game. You too Thumper
Mr Schertz has been shooting rimfire BR since at least the mid 1990's. If I remember correctly he wrote some rimfire articles for Precision Shooting. Not a neophyte that needs lecturing on the nuances of the game.

 

[GordonE]

Bill
I can only hope That You Can Win With The Modifactions That You did to that Sporter That Jim Mollica Did With it when you got it. I have a very impressive Wall Full of Trophies.
Gordon

 

[Gene Beggs]

Gene , Big Time RFBR is dominated by the Turbo Style Actions , I currently own 4 Halls ( Would sell any of them but no takers unless I gave them away) and numerous Turbos and I can attest that Allan is way off base ,and needs to do exactly the opposite of what he is doing ,he should be working on a heavy FP for his Halls where they can get competitive and quit trying to fix something that ain`t broke, How many Halls are winning anything???? ZERO The Halls need desperate attention to be competitive and there is too many trees in the forest for Allan to see WTF is going on! I have had this conversation with Allan as has many others ,he is deaf! Nobody that shoots ARA/PSL would touch something as a light FP to put into the Turbo Type action unless they want to be a bottom feeder with those style actions ! JTFM

Slick, I'm a centerfire BR shooter so I should probably refrain from commenting on the rimfire forum but, what the heck. Shooting is shooting, right?

Some time ago, I obtained three new rimfire actions; one from Allan Hall and two Turbos from Flash Ebert. I wanted to dabble a bit in rimfire so I could better understand the differences between centerfire and rimfire. I also wanted to compare the two actions. What did I learn? Well, I learned lots of things, but the main thing I learned was that there is a world of difference between centerfire and rimfire.

Yep, old Beggs met his match in rimfire! I couldn't even figure out how to disassemble the bolt on the Turbo. I called Flash and he said he would come by my shop with the right tool and show me how to do it. After lunch at the Barn Door steakhouse (yeah, I had to buy) I figured I knew all there was to know about the Turbo action. (Yeah, right)

Since I regarded myself as an expert at fitting and chambering centerfire barrels, I figured there couldn't be much to these lil' ol' rimfire 22's! Wrong! Anyway with the help of Flash Ebert and the use of his reamers, I wound up with what I felt was a good chamber in a new Shilen barrel.

To make a long story short, after experimenting with stocks, barrel indexing, different types of breach configurations, etc., etc., I concluded rimfire BR was not for me. If I was going to shoot rimfire, I should have started decades ago. Anyway, I had fun and learned a lot.

So, what about the Hall vs., the Turbo? And what about the light/fast vs., heavy/slow firing pins? Beats me! Both actions are beautifully made and operate like ball bearings. If you chamber a fired case and dry fire both actions side by side you can tell a big difference in the way they sound and feel. The Hall snaps instantly with what seems like a light firing pin strike but examination of the case reveals a very firm indentation; so much so that if you're using a coned breech, a dent will be left in the sharp cone even with a fired case in place. (Ask me how I know this and ask me why I would never have another coned breech in a rimfire.) With this in mind, I concluded the Hall action had plenty of ignition just as it is.

By comparison, the Turbo firing pin fall reminded me somewhat of an old 1903 Springfield. When you pull the trigger on a Turbo, the loud 'clang' leaves no doubt there is plenty of ignition energy. So which is best? I'm not the one to ask; the only thing I can tell you is I never had a misfire with either a Turbo or Hall. Bill Meyers and Bill Calfee felt the Hall had weak ignition. I don't think so but Meyers made a special heavier firing pin for the Hall, which I did not use by the way.

Who knows; someday I may take another crack at rimfire but for now I'll stick to short range group with my 220 Beggs (a.k.a. the Lapua 220 Russian.)

Good shooting to everyone in '15. I'll be lurking around.

Gene Beggs

 

[Bill B]

Many praise the ignition of the Turbo, but Turbo owners know that every 2-4 years they need to replace their firing pin springs to keep them shooting consistently. It's widely known that Flash's springs were not tempered and lost their power fairly quickly and dropped shots were the result. Jim Pepper (and maybe others) offered up tempered springs that lasted longer but even they lose their oomph after awhile and need to be replaced. My experience has been mostly with Turbos (a single shot and sporter both made by Flash). I even had failures to fire early on, which necessitated the first spring replacement. It would be interesting to hear of the experience with the firing pin spring life of other actions. I have a Stiller 2500X and shot it for the 2014 season and was impressed with it's consistency and operation, even tho it uses the "outdated" SAP ignition. It will be interesting to see how it/they hold up over the seasons with regard to spring life.

So, when I keep hearing about how much better the Turbo ignition is compared to other types, I think, "Yeah, it has great ignition if you keep a supply of extra springs and a bolt tool and change them out at the first sign of dropped shots." I guess the smarter shooters replace them before they start to get the dropped shots.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the Turbo. They are top quality and they have been very successful. I just don't see where their ignition is all that. If you don't replace their springs out on a fairly regular basis, you will lose points due to inconsistent ignition. How is that "great ignition"?

So, my question is: What actions are you shooting and how often are you changing out the firing pin springs to keep them shooting well?

 

[Slick Willy]

Thanks Gene!

Slick, I'm a centerfire BR shooter so I should probably refrain from commenting on the rimfire forum but, what the heck. Shooting is shooting, right?

Some time ago, I obtained three new rimfire actions; one from Allan Hall and two Turbos from Flash Ebert. I wanted to dabble a bit in rimfire so I could better understand the differences between centerfire and rimfire. I also wanted to compare the two actions. What did I learn? Well, I learned lots of things, but the main thing I learned was that there is a world of difference between centerfire and rimfire.

Yep, old Beggs met his match in rimfire! I couldn't even figure out how to disassemble the bolt on the Turbo. I called Flash and he said he would come by my shop with the right tool and show me how to do it. After lunch at the Barn Door steakhouse (yeah, I had to buy) I figured I knew all there was to know about the Turbo action. (Yeah, right)

Since I regarded myself as an expert at fitting and chambering centerfire barrels, I figured there couldn't be much to these lil' ol' rimfire 22's! Wrong! Anyway with the help of Flash Ebert and the use of his reamers, I wound up with what I felt was a good chamber in a new Shilen barrel.

To make a long story short, after experimenting with stocks, barrel indexing, different types of breach configurations, etc., etc., I concluded rimfire BR was not for me. If I was going to shoot rimfire, I should have started decades ago. Anyway, I had fun and learned a lot.

So, what about the Hall vs., the Turbo? And what about the light/fast vs., heavy/slow firing pins? Beats me! Both actions are beautifully made and operate like ball bearings. If you chamber a fired case and dry fire both actions side by side you can tell a big difference in the way they sound and feel. The Hall snaps instantly with what seems like a light firing pin strike but examination of the case reveals a very firm indentation; so much so that if you're using a coned breech, a dent will be left in the sharp cone even with a fired case in place. (Ask me how I know this and ask me why I would never have another coned breech in a rimfire.) With this in mind, I concluded the Hall action had plenty of ignition just as it is.

By comparison, the Turbo firing pin fall reminded me somewhat of an old 1903 Springfield. When you pull the trigger on a Turbo, the loud 'clang' leaves no doubt there is plenty of ignition energy. So which is best? I'm not the one to ask; the only thing I can tell you is I never had a misfire with either a Turbo or Hall. Bill Meyers and Bill Calfee felt the Hall had weak ignition. I don't think so but Meyers made a special heavier firing pin for the Hall, which I did not use by the way.

Who knows; someday I may take another crack at rimfire but for now I'll stick to short range group with my 220 Beggs (a.k.a. the Lapua 220 Russian.)

Good shooting to everyone in '15. I'll be lurking around.

Gene Beggs

Gene,I have a couple of your wind probes and greatly appreciate your contribution to the BR sports! I shoot monthly with Allan and I visited with Flash frequently the last 3 years before his passing ! My first 3 22RFBR rifles were Halls (1 Gene Davis & 2 Bill Myers) learned a lot from those rifles and as Allan always says , "They go BANG don`t they?" They really do! I still have all three ,and really plan on them being in my estate sale! I finally got a Turbo from Roger Brock and it was like nothing I ever shot ,It was a killer and I wanted a 2nd one and that is when my first conversations with Flash began , those Turbo`s put me in contention up front and I was blessed, Lock Time is not important in 22RFBR , so fast ain`t a plus! I asked a lot of questions to Allan and Allan aways gives you his take of the world! I personally think that if Allan would change his ignition to a similar momentum based ignition like Flash`s , his Rimfire action would be as good as any! I and many folks have told him this many times when he asked us why don`t you shoot that Hall any more? It`s a minus 100+ points in ARA ,Its That Simple! He ain`t going to change! The Folks that have cloned Flash`s Turbo can not seem to copy something they have in their hands??? The new V1 has the tolerences so tight among other things ,it is a pain to get it close to a Original ,and after 500 actions made the X3 & X3L are as close but they had the same problem, could not copy Flash`s Turbo either! Simply amazing! I think I have about 5 V1`s and about 5 of The 10X actions , I am familiar with all of them! James Pappas copied your wind probe and his goal was to counterfeit it to a tee, and came very close, I think with your help! These Turbo Clone counterfeiters had to make their own version or improvements and the versions all had glitches ! They all go Bang!

Buskey, on the Springs & Bolt ; I change springs a couple of Times a season , too much wax/grease in & around the FP/spring is culprit too! I have a 2500 also and it is a nice action , My #1 is still a Flash Turbo! Maybe the perfect 22RF action ain`t been made ,but Flash was as close as anybody !

 

[Bill B]

Thanks Slick. I agree with you that the Turbo is a great action, if you keep replacing that spring. I just wouldn't call having to replace a firing pin spring on such a frequent basis to keep them performing, "great ignition." My #1 is my 2500X. I shot it more this season then I ever shot my Turbo in any single season. It just got better and better. No hint of any let-off in ignition and it's been so very consistent. I just had my best season ever in the heavy gun classes shooting it. IMO, the Stiller is better than my Flash Turbos.

 

[Doug]

PINs & SPRINGS

Until this year all my sporters & heavy guns have had 12:00 ignition & are spring over pin design.

The only spring I have had to replace in my sporter (Anschutz) was a trigger spring that a gunsmith fooled with.

I replaced my Firing Pin & Spring in my 40X about 7 Years ago with one of Allan's light weight pins & springs and never regretted it.

Every few years I do try to take my bolts apart to clean them whether they need it or not!!

The only misfires I have experienced has been with Turbos with it's poor POS design.

I will let you be the judge on were I stand on the SOP or PIS design!