The new copper removing powders
- Thread starter Stevep51d
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vtmarmot
P Magoon, Livin' Free NH
I'll attempt an explanation.
What I have pieced together from a number of sources, is that roughness in the leade can cause copper from the jacket to vaporize and go into suspension in the hot gas. It precipitates out further down the barrel as the gases cool. That's why fouling is usually worse in the last third of the barrel. The compounds in the coatings on copper fouling reducing powder react with the copper to keep it in suspension and let it blow out the end of the barrel.
I have proved to myself that lapping the roughness out of the leade will help reduce copper fouling. According to John Barsness, all Ramshot powders have a copper fouling reducing agent. I cannot confirm this from their web site or other literature but I plan to send them an email about it. Ramshot TAC is known to be such a powder. I use it extensively, especially in the .223, and find that fouling of all types is minimal.
I plan to try some of the new IMR powders myself.
What I have pieced together from a number of sources, is that roughness in the leade can cause copper from the jacket to vaporize and go into suspension in the hot gas. It precipitates out further down the barrel as the gases cool. That's why fouling is usually worse in the last third of the barrel. The compounds in the coatings on copper fouling reducing powder react with the copper to keep it in suspension and let it blow out the end of the barrel.
I have proved to myself that lapping the roughness out of the leade will help reduce copper fouling. According to John Barsness, all Ramshot powders have a copper fouling reducing agent. I cannot confirm this from their web site or other literature but I plan to send them an email about it. Ramshot TAC is known to be such a powder. I use it extensively, especially in the .223, and find that fouling of all types is minimal.
I plan to try some of the new IMR powders myself.
Wouldnt say it is new, see the following in depth posting;
https://www.shootersforum.com/handloading-procedures-practices/78442-hodgdons-cfe-223-a.html
"Several existing powders already contain the tin or bismuth compounds that remove copper fouling - such inclusions are mentioned in the military contracts the powders were designed for. Its just that Hodgdon was the first to include that claim in its advertising. If you are a high-volume .223 shooter, this is probably a good powder to look at. If you shoot something else, it's probably not worth your time, effort or money. "
vtmarmot
P Magoon, Livin' Free NH
Not worth it?
In my mind, anything that reduces cleanup time and saves expensive chemicals is worth it. I have several older rifles that I like that have bores neglected by previous owners. They can turn into a copper mine in a short shooting session. I will be using copper fouling reducing powder in these exclusively.
In my mind, anything that reduces cleanup time and saves expensive chemicals is worth it. I have several older rifles that I like that have bores neglected by previous owners. They can turn into a copper mine in a short shooting session. I will be using copper fouling reducing powder in these exclusively.
CFE powders
I understand the powder hodgdon calls cfe 223 was used by our military several years ago with good results specifically in fully automatic weapons. Since the military has changed to an improved powder, only available to military, hodgdon has released the exact blend of old powder to the commercial market and they focus their advertising on its purpose of reducing copper fouling. I think I read this in magazine article, don't remember the source for sure.
I use it for pistol since it works for several calibers. I realized right away that it seemed so sooty, just black all through the action and barrel. But soot Is from an unburned/poorly burned event yet my loads have good velocity and accuracy for what I do so maybe it isn't soot. This makes me wonder if it reduces copper fouling by coating everything with something similar to soot so copper won't embed as easy.
If that is the case, I wonder if the sooty substance acts like a lubricant for the bullet that could reduce copper fouling. I am glad you asked as I wonder if this is a good powder or a gimmick. It's also not real expensive and always in stock.
I understand the powder hodgdon calls cfe 223 was used by our military several years ago with good results specifically in fully automatic weapons. Since the military has changed to an improved powder, only available to military, hodgdon has released the exact blend of old powder to the commercial market and they focus their advertising on its purpose of reducing copper fouling. I think I read this in magazine article, don't remember the source for sure.
I use it for pistol since it works for several calibers. I realized right away that it seemed so sooty, just black all through the action and barrel. But soot Is from an unburned/poorly burned event yet my loads have good velocity and accuracy for what I do so maybe it isn't soot. This makes me wonder if it reduces copper fouling by coating everything with something similar to soot so copper won't embed as easy.
If that is the case, I wonder if the sooty substance acts like a lubricant for the bullet that could reduce copper fouling. I am glad you asked as I wonder if this is a good powder or a gimmick. It's also not real expensive and always in stock.
Copper
You have a excellent point there! I was reading something many years ago talking about the high nitro content of the early powders and how they eroded the bore very quickly and I wondered if possibly this was a new twist with nitro content giving them the mentioned effect.....Anyway I will never need it but curious minds must ask. I saw a article where they took three chrome lined AR's with 10,000 rounds of wolf, brown bear and Federal ammo being copper and after 5000 rounds both the Wolf and Brown bear tubes were sewer pipes and the Federal still was ticking well past 10,000 rounds...Is it the powder, Steel jacketed bullets or what was eroding the barrels so fast?
You have a excellent point there! I was reading something many years ago talking about the high nitro content of the early powders and how they eroded the bore very quickly and I wondered if possibly this was a new twist with nitro content giving them the mentioned effect.....Anyway I will never need it but curious minds must ask. I saw a article where they took three chrome lined AR's with 10,000 rounds of wolf, brown bear and Federal ammo being copper and after 5000 rounds both the Wolf and Brown bear tubes were sewer pipes and the Federal still was ticking well past 10,000 rounds...Is it the powder, Steel jacketed bullets or what was eroding the barrels so fast?
243winxb
Member
Tin Dioxide is listed in some smokeless powders MSDS .
Note that Hodgdon has made it harder to find the MSDS on the new website.
You have to look for the link below a type of powder.
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/hpcsphericalsds.pdf
Not all powders will have Tin Dioxide.
Note that Hodgdon has made it harder to find the MSDS on the new website.
You have to look for the link below a type of powder.
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/hpcsphericalsds.pdf
Not all powders will have Tin Dioxide.
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vtmarmot
P Magoon, Livin' Free NH
Oops, My Bad.
Well, count me among those reviled types who spread misinformation on the internet. I emailed customerservice@ramshot.com and this is what I got back: "Ramshot X-Terminator is the only [Ramshot] powder that has an anti-coppering agent added to it." A corollary is that you can't believe everything you read in gun magazines either, because that is where I got my information.
So, X-Terminator, CFE-223 and the four IMR Enduron powders have it. As far as I can tell, no others do. Here's the link for Enduron:
http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Enduron Info Sheet.pdf
I guess I'll be buying some new [to me] powders very soon.
Well, count me among those reviled types who spread misinformation on the internet. I emailed customerservice@ramshot.com and this is what I got back: "Ramshot X-Terminator is the only [Ramshot] powder that has an anti-coppering agent added to it." A corollary is that you can't believe everything you read in gun magazines either, because that is where I got my information.
So, X-Terminator, CFE-223 and the four IMR Enduron powders have it. As far as I can tell, no others do. Here's the link for Enduron:
http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Enduron Info Sheet.pdf
I guess I'll be buying some new [to me] powders very soon.
Doug Casner
New member
cfe-223
Ive burned probably 3 or 4 lbs. through my ARs. Run a patch down the barrel and all I got was a little powder foul. I think it does what it says. Didn't get any blue. I got a little mod. 7 Remington in 223 and it likes it to. Its pretty slow burning for a 223 bought like 4320 but it likes the 69 gr. sierra match. Doug
Ive burned probably 3 or 4 lbs. through my ARs. Run a patch down the barrel and all I got was a little powder foul. I think it does what it says. Didn't get any blue. I got a little mod. 7 Remington in 223 and it likes it to. Its pretty slow burning for a 223 bought like 4320 but it likes the 69 gr. sierra match. Doug
F
frogger
Guest
There are various patents around to reduce copper fouling.
Basically there are
Lead
Tin
Bismuth
and their chemical compounds which can be added to the primer or the propellant, while adding it to the propellant is in general more effective. In artillary grenades lead or tin foils may be added to the propellant.
The effect of the added compound is, that the copper fouling becomes more brittle and most of it will be ejected with the next shot.
The usage of lead has become lesser for environment protection reasons.
There is also an effect to get more copper fouling, if you switch to lead free primers.
Frogger
Basically there are
Lead
Tin
Bismuth
and their chemical compounds which can be added to the primer or the propellant, while adding it to the propellant is in general more effective. In artillary grenades lead or tin foils may be added to the propellant.
The effect of the added compound is, that the copper fouling becomes more brittle and most of it will be ejected with the next shot.
The usage of lead has become lesser for environment protection reasons.
There is also an effect to get more copper fouling, if you switch to lead free primers.
Frogger
Sometimes, if you wait for the target to tell you it's too late. You can surely use that as a basis for cleaning before the target tells you!
Additionally, shoot the most accurate powder in your rifle and clean it when necessary. Never mind about powders that claim to be self cleaning.
Additionally, shoot the most accurate powder in your rifle and clean it when necessary. Never mind about powders that claim to be self cleaning.
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I suspect
the new reduced cu fouling powders are more aimed at users of rifles equipped with barrels not as finely made and lapped as a br barrel is. Having shot through a lot of barrels in br I have never had a cu fouling problem until the barrel started its decline to un-competitiveness, at which time cu fouling was not the problem with the barrel. Its kind of sad that the powder companies have to compensate for mediocre barrels as rifle manufacturers race to see who can be the lowest priced producer.
the new reduced cu fouling powders are more aimed at users of rifles equipped with barrels not as finely made and lapped as a br barrel is. Having shot through a lot of barrels in br I have never had a cu fouling problem until the barrel started its decline to un-competitiveness, at which time cu fouling was not the problem with the barrel. Its kind of sad that the powder companies have to compensate for mediocre barrels as rifle manufacturers race to see who can be the lowest priced producer.
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