The "click" ????

T

tiny68

Member
What is the "click" that have read a couple of people refer to upon extraction of a fired round? What is the exact cause? What do you do about it? I have some 30BR cases that I have fired 7-8 times that had an odd feel upon extraction. Bolt lift wasn't very heavy until right at the end before the cam.

Thanks, tiny
 
the click is that hard feel at the top of the bolt lift you're feeling. if you open the bolt faster it clicks- or at least it does on a custom action. you can run your cases thru a small base die or do like benchresters do- throw them away. at the denton match saturday both of my guns went thru a set of cases. it's just the way it is.
 
I will add- a good custom die, made exactly from your reamer drawings will make those cases last alot longer.
 
Cause

The root cause in all but very isolated instances is excessive gunpowder (pressure).

A sizing die that eliminates the "click" simply increases the "excessive" value. If your rifle needs that little extra then you need to make it work smoothly. Never compete with difficult extraction.
 
So once your cases develop the click, can you anneal and resize or are they unusable at this point? tiny
 
HovisKM said:
Are you full length sizing or neck sizing?

Hovis
Click to expand...

FL with Redding S-type. I try to have a minimum bump just so the bolt closes easily on a chambered brass. I don't have a gauge set to measure the bump. I just add spacers 0.001" at time until I am there.

tiny
 
Tiny, what you are experiencing can be remedied by a sizing die that works well with your chamber...assuming we are talking about a tight custom chamber that is. I have been using the same cases in my 30BR's for a LONG time, with zero clicking issues. Were talking over 100 firings per case, high pressure loads. I do anneal on a regular basis, but that's not to help with clicking, rather to keep neck tension consistent. I would recommend that you buy a die from Harrell's to solve your problem. They stock BR and PPC dies in several different sizes, and you can send them a few fired cases that they will match up with your chamber. If the chamber was cut with a standard "Robinette" reamer, just have them send you a #2.5 and be done with it...
 
If your die is too big in the back, relative to your chamber, you could be in a situation where you end up bumping your shoulder too far back to get a minimal amount of sizing at the back of the case. This is why setting up a FL die without a way to measure bump is not a good idea. Ditto on the Harrell die. They come with a bump gauge.
 
tiny68 said:
FL with Redding S-type. I try to have a minimum bump just so the bolt closes easily on a chambered brass. I don't have a gauge set to measure the bump. I just add spacers 0.001" at time until I am there.

tiny
Click to expand...

Your cases maybe work hardeining just a little and require a little more sizing now after seven or eight firings. Are you feeling any tighter chambering of rounds? Take the firing pin assy out and chamber a sized case. If the handle isn't coming down to about 90* then you need to size some more. If that isn't the problem...then your probably just to hot or maybe a die mismatch.

Hovis
 
Tiny ...

tiny68 said:
What is the "click" that have read a couple of people refer to upon extraction of a fired round? What is the exact cause?
Click to expand...

John Dustin in his Precision Shooting, October 2007 article, Mutterings From a Confessed Contrarian, Page 98, has in part, this to say about the exact cause:

.... "Even front-locking actions firing centerfire rounds of moderate power (e.g., .223-based cartridges) will routinely undergo elastic deformation during firing, on the order of .0005" for such smaller rounds up to .0015" for the big magnums. This takes the form of a temporary set-back of the bolt head in the receiver. The elastic deformation of rear-locking actions is even greater. Thus, the imperfect engagement of the lugs (which is typically no greater than .0002" or thereabouts) is taken up quickly, with the bolt and receiver lugs being in contact with each other during the majority of the bullet's travel down the bore. This is a benign phenomenon, one these actions are designed to tolerate. Like a spring, the actions return to their original positions when the pressure falls off in the barrel. This is why we get hard bolt lift and tough extraction when our loads get too hot! The brass has been forced above its elastic deformation limits into the realm of plastic deformation. The action, still within the limits of elastic deformation, snaps back on the oversize cartridge case, and everything gets bound up."
 
tiny68 said:
So once your cases develop the click, can you anneal and resize or are they unusable at this point? tiny
Click to expand...

Annealing won't help the "click". It would be dangerous to anneal in the area where the click exists.

Here's the deal....your cases are bigger than your chamber somewhere near the big end. The fix is to find a die to size that area small enough such that one firing won't make it too big again. As I stated earlier, the cause is almost always too much gunpowder.

The following paragraph has been written many times but seems to fit again here:

When faced with difficult bolt closure, the fix may be to bump the shoulder back. This is not always the fix. When the problem lies with swelled cases at the web area, bumping the shoulder in an attempt to fix the problem can create a dangerous headspace issue. Case separation can and will and has occurred resulting in injury.

A simple test will tell you if it's the shoulder or the web. Purposely bump the shoulder of a problem case excessively. If the bolt closes easily on this case it's the shoulder. If not, it's the web area. THROW THIS CASE FAR AWAY!

Once the web area is sized "out of the way", the shoulder will very likely need to be bumped. If you squeeze a banana anywhere it gets longer. That's why folks are using FL dies (or custom FL dies). A FL die does it all in one whack.

One more thing and I'll hush. If an empty case cycles smoothly and the problem is with a loaded round either your case neck is too long or you have negative neck clearance. Take care of either of those before you shoot another shot.
 
2d That!!!

Don't EVER heat the web area of a case.

Many of us have spent quite a bit of time getting our dies matched perfect to our chambers. I strive to get the best compromise between just enough sizing, and avoidance of any feeding and extraction problems. In all honesty, when my brass starts giving me problems, I just toss it.

Sometimes it is difficult to solve some of these problems with simple answers. Like I said, many of us have spent quite a bit of time matching all of this up. Just saying, "do this", or "do that" can over simplify the situation.

Be sure you are taking accurate measurements, and do not rely on "seat of the pants" notions. If you are bumping the shoulders back more than .003,and are still getting a "click", then there is probably a miss match between the criticle components.

That, or you are shooting too hot for your given combination.........jackie
 
My experience is

that you cant just fix the problem with a smaller base die. The factory makes the web area to a certain diameter, and needing it to be smaller seems to not work well. I have found once you "pop" the web bigger, it seems to click even if pushed back. The big trouble is that everyone in this sport seems to think you need "minimum" for everything. This is one case where a minimum size in the rear of your chamber is the cause for this problem. I have had dies that squeeze the case head end and basically do nothing. Get a reamer that is .0015 bigger on the back end and you will have cases that last much longer.

In summary, the best way to eliminate early click is to make sure your reamer is a little bigger on the back so the case can move a little and not be an issue. The last proof for me was the 220 beggs reamer, die set. I bought the die, which is the right size, and the reamer to spec. As it turns out the reamer is too tight. After 8 moderate firings it clicks. I polished out .002 in the back half and cant hardly make them click.
 
To get a better picture of what is going on, use the tips of your dial calipers to measure the diameter of the bottom of a new .220 Russian case's extractor groove. Take several measurements, rotating the case, and do a little guesstimation for the fourth place. Then take a case, from the same box that has been fired a lot, hot, and do the same measurements. You will see larger and more irregular measurements. The head expands like a raw hamburger patty pressed between your palms. I also believe that the head hardens as it is worked by successive firings. Once the head expands too far for a good fit for a particular chamber, it can be sized so that it will go in OK, but as Jerry said, upon firing it will pop out to a "click" fit.
 
How about

Turning .002 of the web and butt area those cases that have been fired HOT a few times? After all the work it took to get them where they are, wouldn't they be worth saving?
 
I don't think so, you've had some good advice by some very respected shooters.....

I'd listen to them ;)
 
After several mediocre solutions the best I've found is to have a proper FL die made. The one I had made, which is not unique, sizes the case only a touch in the base and bumps the shoulder about 1/2-1 thou. Any of several bbls. all with the same chamber on 2 actions require only 1 or 2 shim size adjustments with Otto type shims.
 
YAYYYYY STILLER!!!!! :D:D:D

The ANSWER is, make your chamber fatter. A proper chamber and proper dies will NEVER CLICK until the primer pocket is gone.

Never.


If the primer pockets are going away you are indeedy running hot.


al
 
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