testing ammo.

M

mr. nobody

Guest
ok i've seen in thread where people have said thier rifles shoot great groups but don't shoot score well. my hall actioned rifle will put 5 shots in the same hole at 50 yards. the guy i got it from shot in group matches. i've retuned it and everything, but the highest score i have got is 2100. i average in the 1900's.

i have a guy who sends me targets that he shoots in the 2000 and up range but he doesn't have the balls to go to a match. he shoots early in the morning and in the late afternoon. i told him to crap(i used the s word) or get off the pot. he's not impressing me chosing the conditions he shoots in.

i want to know how you guys test ammo. do you shoot groups when testing ammo or do you test score on ammo lots? i know smith's never say what group size they shoot , but what score the rifle does. i just have to know.
 
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When you test for groups look for round groups and avoid ammo that strings up and down. Shoot at least 10 shots into the groups for a better average group size. Test at 50 yards and if possible try some at 100 yards. Test it in the same rig that you use to shoot the matches.
 
i had been shooting groups when testing mine in the pappas rest. it will drive them into a tiny group. when i test ammo i shoot a 5 shot group. then a 20 shot group. the i put the last 25 in a group. the truth is it shoots groups out of this world, but score it sucks( and to be totally truthful it could be the shooter that totally sucks). in the match before last i was shooting at a sighter on a ara target and put 4 shots in the exact same hole. when i went to a record bull and the wind didn't change i sighted in on the same point i used on the sighter and shot a damned 50!!!! with the rifle in the pappas rest and everything being the same it should have shot a 100 and took out the x. i have noticed at the range it does this alot.

i have had others that shoot much higher scores than me shoot it and come out with the scores around what i shoot. when i try thier rifles i shoot scores like they do.

i have a new barrel ordered now, and am looking at a new stock as well. the main thing i want to know is how most people test ammo. there are others who want to know as well but don't have the guts to ask. i do and i will take all the flaming and name calling people will put out. if it helps me and anybody else it is worth it.
 
Ammo

I feel your pain Mr. Nobody! I also shoot groups at first when testing ammo. I use that more to get a true zero for the rifle than as an assessment of the ammo. Obviously, if shots are scattered all over the target it isn't going to shoot well. I also agree with Prone shooter. Vertical stringing in groups is a major flaw. Horizontal stringing tends to be the shooter/wind combo. Once I am sure of the zero, I shoot score (IR50/50 though the target type doesn't matter) and watch the wind. I have been averaging in the high 240s and would do better if I'd practice more, if I was a better shooter, if I had the patience to wait for good wind conditions and so forth. Please note I don't factor equipment into the equation. IMHO, a good shooter will perform with a decent, though not exceptional, rifle. It is my theory that if you practice with the target you shoot in competition it will be the most help when the chips are down. There is no substitute for trigger time. Good luck:D
 
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i have noticed of late that , on my rifle, if there is too long a time between shots the first one after the time lapse will be off a fair amount. the next will be back a point of aim. 40x ,17tw,reasonable home made base rest with commercial adj. top, weighed ammo, and a less the adequate operator.
 
when i practice i shoot at the same target types we us in matches. i'm trying to get the rifle right. i don't know how to tune for targets instead of groups. when i have the rifle rebarreled i'm going to do a tuning method that i've read about and see how it does that way. i've got as high as a 2100 one time in my first match. the rest of the time i've stayed in the 1900 range with the rifle. it very well could be me, but when i use somebody elses rifle i shoot higher scores at practice.

how do you tune for score instead of groups? i've retuned the rifle and it always comes back to this tune. it doesn't string verticully. it has me bothered something bad right now.
 
Mr. Nobody:

I was told, by a very reputable gunsmith, that you can tune the vertical out of your rifle with a tuner AND by getting the correct torque on your action screws. He suggested that you get a inch pound torque wrench and loosen up the action screws and then, using the torque wrench start at 25/25 front and rear. The adjust the torque by 5 in.lbs starting at the front ie: 30/25, then 30/30, 35/30, 35/35, 40/35,etc. until you started shooting round groups. Then use your tuner to finish tuning the barrel..

Just my $.02 worth.

Dave
 
my rifle shoots tiny tiny groups. from all the pm's i've been getting im hearing people say that a great grouping rifle is just that. they have been saying that the best grouping rifle isn't always going to be the best scoring rifle. i can tell that seems to be very true.
 
Great post

Dave S said:
Mr. Nobody:

I was told, by a very reputable gunsmith, that you can tune the vertical out of your rifle with a tuner AND by getting the correct torque on your action screws. He suggested that you get a inch pound torque wrench and loosen up the action screws and then, using the torque wrench start at 25/25 front and rear. The adjust the torque by 5 in.lbs starting at the front ie: 30/25, then 30/30, 35/30, 35/35, 40/35,etc. until you started shooting round groups. Then use your tuner to finish tuning the barrel..

Just my $.02 worth.

Dave
Click to expand...

This post is some of the best information you will get on tuning a rimfire rifle, try it, it works.
 
Pappas rest

I would also try to loosen the tension on the forend of the rifle and shoot it.
 
mr. nobody said:
my rifle shoots tiny tiny groups. from all the pm's i've been getting im hearing people say that a great grouping rifle is just that. they have been saying that the best grouping rifle isn't always going to be the best scoring rifle. i can tell that seems to be very true.
Click to expand...

The best grouping rifle may not be the best scoring rifle is true; however, ammo runs true most of the time. If it will group it will score. That is, the ammo does not really care where it's pointed; it's going to be consistent. Now there could be a case of you thinking you have a better group than you do, but that's a different story. However, torque, differences in hold, bedding issues, scope issues, etc may make your rifle shoot the ammo erratically across the target. If you don't believe that, then find some great grouping ammo and go across the target shooting groups. Take your time and set up as you always would to shoot groups, just shoot in different places. Unless you're doing something nuts, the rifle should still shoot the same average group assuming all else to be equal. Now look at your groups in relation to the original group. Has it moved? If so, something is amiss but not the ammo.

For the record, I test ammo first by group with no tuner. Tuner won't hurt it, so if it's good without the tuner I can only improve. Then I test by group with the tuner. Then finally by score. I never measure a group because I'm not interested in the number. Occasionally, an ammo lot will be so good that I may shoot one group and then shoot for score, but it has to be good.
 
Have you thought about your bag and rest technique? One of the things that adds challenge to ara 50/50 and rba matches is that your point of aim is always changing. If you are shooting tiny groups I think you have it tuned. Now work on your hold and bag technique, it has to be the same every time.
Also stiffness in the bags may come into play. As you move from side to side you are changing the tension on the forearm. Flag reading is pretty important too. By the way, 2000 aint to shabby on an ara target for a beginner. Practice then pratice some more and think consistant.
Steve
 
no bags. i use a one piece rest. i have talked to james pappas and he gave me something to think about. i had been pinching the trigger instead of a controled sqeeze. i'm going to check the torque settings as well.
 
just another thought

i have beening shooting around 8 mons. or so. I have found torque setting on the action screws to be as low 15 inch pounds so you may want to start lower. another food for thought if you go from a weaver to a nightforce it will throw off your tune as well. learned the hard way.
 
it's funny. 635 views and only 13 posts. that makes me think that there are more people who want to know, and not enough asking. don't be shy guys. ask questions. we need to get answers.
 
rest design

I'm gonna throw this out here and probably get chased back under the porch, but
i used to shoot off a Hongisto one piece rest and wished that the back portion of the rest was made to move in conjunction with the front,... turn the front windage and the butt stock would follow..to eliminate any chance of
torque or slight binding in the stock body, just one of my crazy ideas
 
Mr. Nobody,

I have also been working on trying to come up with the best technique for testing ammo. The object is to shoot as little as possible while still differentiating which lot of ammo is the best. Many people believe that I shoot every lot of ammo I get for resale, but when I got in this business I quickly learned that I could not afford to do that. We just have too many different lots coming in. I have tried shooting 25 shot groups, 2 shot groups, 3 shot groups, 5 shot groups, 10 shot groups, and shooting for score. Right now (and this could change at any time) here is my procedure.
Shoot 1 5-shot group
Zero my scope for that group
Shoot another 5 shot group to confirm my scope is set correctly
Shoot 1 target for score
Shoot each sighter target that is available
Shoot 5 shot groups until the entire box is gone

This limits my testing to 1 box of ammo. If this test goes well, I will repeat the test the next day. So, I shoot a total of 2 boxes. This is the minimum that I can shoot and feel comfortable buying a large quantity of ammo. A bad lot is usually eliminated quickly, but a good lot takes more testing to confirm.

I like to test my ammo by shooting for score because I shoot for score in competition. I have also observed that some ammo shoots great groups, but will not shoot for score. The obvious reason for that would seem to be the tracking of the stock, but that does not seem to be the case. I am not sure what is the reason. If a rifle shoots good groups it should shoot good scores, but it does not seem to always work that way. So, I test ammo by shooting for score.

When I tune my rifle, I shoot groups. I had not thought of shooting score while tuning instead of shooting groups until I read this thread. I think I will give it a try.
 
This is my 2 cents on the subject,I test ammo. buy shooting 2or3 5 shot groups,if it does'nt string them out or shoot in circles I go straight to see how it scores.I have read some good advice on this thread about tourque,side tension,and consistency,but I wonder have you played around with putting a little pressure around the grip? I don't travel from shoot to shoot,but I shoot with some good shooters and have noticed that some of them don't do anything but touch the trigger off when they shoot,others put a little pressure on the grip,and my gun likes to be held.
 
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Don't have time to do it

I would think that if you shot a 25 shot group over the time it would take to shoot 25 bulls, the results would be the same. Twenty three in the same hole and two out would evaluate OK but would be two misses on a score target.

Nobody wants to shoot a 25 shot group. It never gets smaller..
 
Wilbur said:
Nobody wants to shoot a 25 shot group. It never gets smaller..
Click to expand...

Wilbur, I guess I’m “Nobody”, because I often shoot up to 100 shot groups at separate POA’s to determine small differences in tuning or testing. :D

Shooting a target for purposes of tuning will only work if your POI and POA are always perfectly matched and in most cases they aren’t.
If you do shoot a 25 shot target, then you have to form a compilation of those shots and determine the mathematical center for the resulting 25 shot group.
The center of that 25 shot group will not be in the exact center of the 100 ring and you’ll have to decide if moving it to the center results in a better or worse score.

Proper tracking and bag set-up for centerfire is well documented, but less so with rimfire.
I’ve done enough testing with one-piece rests to determine to my satisfaction that moving to 25 separate Bulls results in the same size groups as 25 shots with one POA and I’ve also determined I can enlarge the group by holding varying degrees of pressure against the stock with my finger while firing groups.

Landy
 
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