Old adage fails the test...

J

jeffsvice

Guest
Good natured commentary from a beginner…

Opinions are like uh…backsides; everyone has one and can’t wait to tell you about it.

Judging from the underwhelming response to my posting yesterday on wind flags, this old adage is not true when it comes to sharing details on usage of wind flags. While “USE WINDFLAGS”, along with “PRACTICE IN POOR CONDITIONS” may well be the most oft-touted bits of advice from the experienced to the beginner, no one can or will provide much commentary on how to use them.

On the other hand, I asked my Dad once (regarded in the community as a fine wing shot) how to hit wild quail. I waited for his sage advice… “Keep shooting and when you hit one”… he paused… “remember what you did and do it the next time”. I understand now just how appropriate that answer was. Perhaps reading the wind is the same… Maybe I’ll look at that posting some time in the future than consider it completely naive.

Before I bought my gun, I called and spoke to a patient and kind gentleman who posts on this site quite often. I told him I was thinking I wanted one of those “fast” RB-LP-RE or drop port actions where I could get my shots off before conditions changed. He agreed with me. Told me that was exactly what I, as a beginner, needed – that way I would have more time at the bench to stare through the scope at the extremely large group I just fired.

I said this was a good natured observation, and I mean that. You guys are exceedingly helpful and patient with new shooters and I really look forward to meeting some of you at shoots later in the year – (where I’m going to beg or bribe some of you to look over my shoulder and coach me on flags…)

In the mean time, I’ll just hope that the wind is my friend and blows some of those shots that would otherwise be flyers back into the hole…

Best regards.
 
Jeff, I think its the nature of forums that the technical topics (barrels, bullets, actions, triggers, rests, etc.) get the lion's share of the posts while the "shooting" topics like wind reading, strategy, etc. get a lot less. Ironically, the shooting posts are of more value to most people but they are very difficult to write about with clarity, they really require some hands-on attention from a fellow shooter. The old adage is still valid, but in some cases it's more valid in person than by internet.
 
Two things that you might do: Buy Mike Ratigan's excellent book and see if you can find Gene Beggs 10 part article on reading the wind. If you can't find Gene's info let me know and I will try to copy it and mail it to you.
Butch
 
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Tough Question

It would be nice if you could get an answer like, "just wait untill all the flags line up the same way, and shoot. Simple."
Of course, one trip to a range such as Tomball, or Denton, will soon tell you that it just isn't that easy.
I might catch some flak from my fellow Competitors over this, but in my opinion, there is no "single" way to read conditions. I know the old adage, 9you get 7 minutes to decide what 25 seconds you will shoot in". Well, I have seen shooters shoot great aggs doing that, and I have also seen them shoot some real crummy aggs doing the same thing.
Sometimes, if the flags cooperate, you can get them all down there in time without ever stopping. Sometimes, you can wait on a condition that you are confident will come back, and shoot that condition at different intervals within the 7 minutes allowed.. Then, there are times when you have to shoot a group in two or three different conditions, hoping all of the time you do not get "sighter suckered" in the proccess.
A well tuned Rifle will give you a little, but the laws of physics have not been repealed, and the bullets will go exactly where the wind pushes them.
The fact is, range time is what helps you in condition reading. Over a period of time, you will start to notice things that were foreign to you before.
Gene Beggs coined a term that is as good as any. It is called "the cross wind component". This is a ever changing value that differs with velocity of the wind, and angle of the wind. It has helped me quite a bit in recognizing what is really going on out there.
I wish we could give you an easy answer. But it is a complicated subject.......jackie
 
Here's one for you...we have a shooter that puts three homemade windflags out at about 45-65-85 yards they are setting only 24" top to bottom..they have large vanes (12"x14") and they are made with heavy rod material no daisey wheels, his flag tails actually lay with about 6" or so on the ground..he shoots 100 and 200 yards without moving his flags during yardage changes...He is the best 200 yard shooter at our range...I have only beat him ONE time in 2 years..:eek:
So much for 2-4-6-8-12 flags and extra sensitative flags with daisey wheels etc, etc...
I once sat next to him at 100 yds and just waited until he fired then I would fire...I did this for 2 groups just to see what would happen, I shot the 2 best groups for those 2 targets of anyone on the firing line..:eek:
So I still haven't figured it out yet...
 
Good question Butch...maybe he was looking at my large group of high dollar sensative flags and wind probe..:D
I think he has figured out what affects his accuracy and keeps it simple..
I have often thought that they are 2-3 easy to see variables that he uses to determine when to shoot...He doesn't run and gun..just keeps shooting if he sees what he wants...
 
Observing

I watched a high ranking Hall of Famer shoot score a few times last season. I think there is something to be gained in observing others who are doing well. I noticed that this particular individual never took his eyes off the flags as he was shooting and re-loading. He also usually shoots quickly when he saw what he knew would work.

I think the lessons are 1. CONCENTRATE and 2. PRACTICE so that one knows what works and what doesn't. Practice in the middle of the day when the conditions are at their worst and against a timer, otherwise one is wasting their time.

Ultimately, I believe the person with the best memory is the best shooter. I have CRS so bad that I have no hope of excelling.
 
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Jeffsvice...I had to learn to shoot a shotgun the hardway try and try and try again...then I had a friend suggest a few solid basics, and I built on it from there...But when managing a Shotgun Club years later...I am able to take a new shooter and bring them up to speed "quickly"...I think the same would work for reading windflags...I can describe how to read a Teal, Chondelle, Rabbit, High Tower shot and many other target presentations...
 
Pete Wass said:
. I have CRS so bad that I have no hope of excelling.
Click to expand...

That is my problem also :D If there is a big condition change and I have to wait a few minutes I am in trouble. My condition will show back up and I will be asking myself 'now where was I holding ????'.
 
I was shooting next to.....

some guy named Tony something-or-other at St. Louis. One match we just happened to start out groups at the same time. We got off two quick shots and I was pleased to see my first two shots were almost touching at 200 yards. The flags looked the same to me as I pushed my gun into position for the third shot but as I shot I noticed that Tony didn't shoot. When I looked at my target I knew why.

My third shot was a ring and a half away from my first two shots. Tony had seen something that I didn't see and this is something you just can't teach. He shoots thousands upon thousands rounds a year and I may shoot a thousand. On top of that he is a much better observer of cause and effect than I am.

I'll save you some grief even if it may not seem like it. Don't waste your time trying to build your own flags. Over the almost 20 years I've been in benchrest I've made dozens of flags but none were the equal of those I bought from Rick Graham. Ten flags may seem expensive but I promise you that making 30 that don't work well is more expensive.

Maybe you'll make it down to Rachel's Glen in October. Jackie says that he'll be here and it's always a fun shoot.
 
jeffsvice said:
, no one can or will provide much commentary on how to use them.
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It's hard to tell someone how to read flags without writing an epic. Many people here will not hit the submit button on an epic. I just had an epic typed in and hit the back button :eek:.

I purposefully started out with a real basic windflag. A music stand with some surveyors ribbon on a coathanger wire arm. My idea was to start getting an idea and then when I had more experience I would build something to suit the lessons I had learned watching the ribbon [ and all the other flags you see at a match].

Although my flags look podunk I have not seen a more sensitive flag. Fortunately I like to cultivate the podunk image [ aka 'sleeper' from my fast car days] so my ego doesn't take a whack because of my balsa wood flags and the cardboard box I transport them in :D

The main thing you need to do is get out there and shoot over some sort of wind indicator.

Are you coming to Riverbend July 12 ? It's a group match and there will be nearly every type of flag available for your observation :p . Good group of guys.
 
I think the problem with teaching somebody how to read wind flags, or for that matter, bench technique, is that both those are skills best applied without thinking. The stimulus never reaches the brain; doesn't have to.

Think about it (well, reflect) -- when you are shooting well, you aren't conscience of all the variables, you aren't computing what each means & you aren't computing how much to hold off or when to shoot. You just do it.

The old adage "practice" is about all anyone can say. Practice is the only way to build that "muscle & mind memory."

Now, "measure twice, cut once" is an entirely different matter . . .
 
Nobody has mentioned the true way to learn how to shoot

the wind. Two words.

RAIL GUN. Get yourself a "good" return to battery rail and you'll learn more about reading the wind than you ever could with a bag gun. Those little twitches that caused a shot to go out a ring are now unmistakably the result of a wind change. They cannot be dismissed as aiming errors or mirage. Nope, the rail keeps you honest.

It is much harder to learn how to shoot the wind with a bag gun. Did you jerk the trigger? Is your bag set up right? Other gun handling issues? Mirage? Ahhhh.

With a rail, you develop good habits, such as scanning the field of flags so you don't get caught when the L-R shifts to a R-L because you have nothing to worry about but the flags.

Yes, they are expensive. Yes, they are a pain to lug around. No, there are not that many matches, but they are the best training tool available for learning to read the wind.

Just my $.02.
 
Mike, could one take a bag gun and put it on one of the rimfire one piece rests and get similar results?
I've seen those rimfire rests with delrin guides and windage/elevation adjustments in the base..??
Might be a good training tool...
 
eww1350 said:
Mike, could one take a bag gun and put it on one of the rimfire one piece rests and get similar results?
I've seen those rimfire rests with delrin guides and windage/elevation adjustments in the base..??
Might be a good training tool...
Click to expand...

I don't know. I never tried one of those contraptions. If it tracks absolutely and returns to battery, then yes. If not, and you have to re-aim it, then no.
 
get a rail gun...

Like Mike said...there is no better learning tool....it shows you what u missed ...if the bullet moves much more than .050" ...it was something YOU missed....and it will help with perfecting your loads also........stop kidding yourself about those rimfire rests ((hey they cost as much as a used rail gun)) ,,,,Roger
 
expiper said:
Like Mike said...there is no better learning tool....it shows you what u missed ...if the bullet moves much more than .050" ...it was something YOU missed....and it will help with perfecting your loads also........stop kidding yourself about those rimfire rests ((hey they cost as much as a used rail gun)) ,,,,Roger
Click to expand...


I agree with the concept but all rail guns won't shoot within .050. Currently, my rail gun wouldn't teach you doodly squat.
 
Wilbur said:
I agree with the concept but all rail guns won't shoot within .050. Currently, my rail gun wouldn't teach you doodly squat.
Click to expand...

Hence my qualification to get a "good" railgun.
 
"jeffsvice"...

Clarence Hammonds helped get started in shooting in 1986. I remember asking him one day after watching him shoot a small group, "Clarence, what were you watching?" His answer?... "EVERYTHING!" At the time, I thought that was one of those answers that good, experienced shooters gave us mere mortals just to blow us off, and that there were "deep, dark secrets" behind the answer. 22 years later, I would probably answer someone the same way!...and with no intent of arrogance or withholding of information whatsoever! I believe that over time, your mind "teaches" itself to react to what it sees, rather than to be able to explain what it sees...
Watch the good shooters at the shoots you go to as time permits with a spotting scope. Watch their heads to see what they're looking at. Watch the field on both sides, but particularly on the predominantly up wind side. Watch their row of flags once they start their group. If they stop, try to figure out why they stopped...
Keep notes on the various ranges you shoot on. I shot a new range recently, and noticed that the 50-yard flag was CLEARLY the key flag for windage @ 200 yards. Another good feature to note about ranges is whether or not there are certain parts of the range that react differently to head wind/tail wind conditions.
Practice, practice, practice...at 200 yards as much as possible. Get a GOOD set of wind flags as your own practice flags. I would strongly suggest "Smiley" flags, others have their preferences as well. Whatever flags you choose, make certain that it is a popular brand so that there's a good chance of seeing a good number of them when you go to a big shoot that is employing full rotation...
 
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