Nostalgia question--mid '80's, 6PPC, and 322

JerrySharrett

JerrySharrett

Senile Member
I came into a big box of old Precision Shooting magazines and have been reading the match reports and equipment lists. Seems that the 6PPC was almost in full colors as was 322 powder. In the mid '80's Precision Shooting Mag was used for match reporting for the IBS and NBRSA so what I noticed and am wondering about has broad coverage.

Looks like almost all of the top 10 at each match was shooting a 6PPC, a 66-68 grain bullet and 26.5-28 grains of one of the 322's (H322, GI322 and T322). The things I am curious about is 1) what approximate velocities were you guys getting and 2) about how full was the PPC case using one of these 322's.
 
T powder

At one time 27.2 was the magic number with T powder. As far as speed goes, I don't remember anyone really working with a chrono in those days.
 
Chrono

Dave B said:
At one time 27.2 was the magic number with T powder. As far as speed goes, I don't remember anyone really working with a chrono in those days.
Click to expand...

I belonged to a company owned range in the mid '60's and one of the Phd's had a chronograph. It had a bunch of rows of lights on it and you had to count the rows of lights and look on a chart for the speed. Then the fun part, the screens were literally that, screens. Sometimes the screens had to be replaced where the bullet cut the wires, sometimes we could solder a "jumper" and get continuity again.

One of our pilots built a ballistic pendulum in the 1970's, like the one which first came into being in the 1700's. It worked!!
 
Jerry,
One of my first benchrest rifles was a HV built on one of Charlie Poff's "Universal" actions. This was back in 1987. Tony had one too...and ended up selling his to Randy Watson. Randy sold me a couple of barrels from that rifle, and I used them for several years!...
In the fall of 1988, I shot 6 groups early one morning in practice with that rifle and a Schneider barrel...that my good friend, Henry Buhrman, told me never to show anyone because they wouldn't believe it! 3 of them were with T-322 and the other 3 were with GI-322. Three of the six groups were screamers, and the 6-group aggregate was .10xx! The 3 groups with 'GI' chronographed @ 3150 f.p.s., and the 3 groups with 'T' chronographed @ 3170 f.p.s...
The first 'Group' match I ever shot in was in 1989 at Weikert. I finished 3rd at 100 yards with that rifle and a Lilja barrel, and my load was H322 at 3240 f.p.s...
All of this shooting was done with Jef Fowler's 66g. bullets. I didn't have a borescope back then...so I couldn't see far enough down into the case to see where the top of the powder column came! :) Just kidding, obviously, but I don't remember it coming up into the neck of the case at all...
Suffice it to say that I think we all used less powder back then. Maybe it was the result of less use of FL dies, or of being more safety conscious, or just plain old "that's where those powders worked"...but whatever the case may be, things have changed dramatically in the last 20 years...
 
Could it have been the cases?

Lapua hadn't started making cases back then, we were all shooting the sako cases. The said the was a bell shaped curve at the base/sidewall junction. I wonder if that improved ignition?
 
I didn't know there was an end

I was sending my wife to a local gun store to buy "322" at $6.50/LB whenever I needed a pound for a match (1989). She came home one day (suddenly and without warning) with a pound and said it cost $15. Enraged, I called the gun store and the guy said it "went up" - didn't know why. I examined the container and found the difference. It was no longer "GI". Shot OK, just more expensive.

Some time later, I moved up to the "BIG TIME". I was ready to buy an 8 pounder. Called up somebody, Walt Berger I think, and ordered a jug of 322 for around $70. It came in a white jug and was labeled "T32". Shot that up and was happy so I called to order another jug. "IT"S BEEN GONE" was the word.

The coming of 133 made available partial jugs of 322 that could be purchased CHEAP so I kept on shooting it. TAC came along, and I had a barrel that loved it! Bought all I could find with the lot "50" sticker. The TAC simply quit shooting but so did everything else. Didn't touch 2 bullet holes for almost three years. It was so bad that when I finally won small group at Riverbend folks cried when they called my name for the trophy.

Thanks to a Louisiana connection, I have one jug of pre-extreme 322 left. I don't care that it's all I have left.....but it's all I have left...if you know what I mean.
 
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Wilbur

I couldn't find out how to email you so I'll just put it here. I have some of this GI 322 and I also have some H322. Early 90's stuff. Is this stuff like 8208? I have never shot any of this in my PPC. Is it affected by temperature and humidity like 8208 or is it like 133? I would like to try some of it , where should I start with my loads? Thanks. Johnnie
 
Be Careful!

Johnny,
BE CAREFUL with the GI322! Some of it has gone bad for shooters in the last 10 years! I certainly can't explain why it has gone bad...and why you haven't heard the same stories about 8208, 'T', old 201 or any of the other vintage benchrest powders, but just be careful of it. I personally witnessed a friend of mine opening an old metal storage cabinet to a complete coating of "BLACK" on the inside of the cabinet from a bottle of GI322 "eating" through the lid and coating the cabinet with residue. Thank God it diffused in the way it did, rather than igniting. Someone a whole lot smarter than me will have to tell you the chemistry of that whole thing...
 
Gi322

After all the stories of houses burning down and eating the cap off the jug I poured my GI322 out at a rest area in western Kansas. When I stop there the grass is greener in that spot. All my HOF points were earned with that powder. Don
 
Gi 322

What I have was never opened still in the box it was shipped in. How can I tell if it's bad? Thanks Johnnie
 
Don Nielson said:
After all the stories of houses burning down and eating the cap off the jug I poured my GI322 out at a rest area in western Kansas. When I stop there the grass is greener in that spot. All my HOF points were earned with that powder. Don
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Don, before or after you poured it out???

Johnnie, bring it to Johnson City and we will shoot it.
 
thats the problem!!!

I had two ten pound cases ((10 individual pounds per case)) ....three one pound cans went bad....lukily nothing else ignited !!!!! The lids were sorta oxidized away (rapidly!!) ...and two of the cans had a piece of residue in the bottom that looked like a "hockey puk"....??!!!??
I took lots of pics and sent them to Hodgdon....the immediately contactd me and said ...."get rid of what is left ...get it out of your house/buliding/barn/...dont send it to us!!"....they very graciously replaced it with current (15yrs ago.) 322...
It seems ( told to me by a very reliable source) that during the pulldown of some of the west coast GI surpluss powder ....it was stored on the ground ...in big piles....handled like it was dirt by equipment...and this over-exposure to the elements (even in the great California desert air) casused a rapid and pre-mature decompositon of the powder!!!!.When I reported the delima to Hodgdon ,,they immediately asked for the lot ## and said ..."oooo yea...that is the lot that is causing all the problems"....that is my story and Im stikin to it.......
The powder may be 'slowly' decomposing in the can and YOU CANT TELL IT!!!...beware .....open the can ...if it smells like old tennis shoes ...Hodgdon will replace it....but never the less ...dont trust it...either use it or sell it to someone who will ,,,immediately........that is just advice from and old fool that has had it happen to him......Roger
Just noticed ...up above in this thread someone offered to help shoot it up at Johnson City.....I am shure that your shooting buddies will each buy a pound and use it there ...if it is still good....it is some of the best powder evr....as long as it hasnt gone bad......lotsa shooters never had the opportunity to use this great powder...
 
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i was told if it smelled like sour milk it was bad

i had a pound of surplus h322 about 15 years ago went to get it one day
and about 3/4 of the metal lid looked like it was eaten away it smelled like
sour milk so i dumped in my yard it does make the grass grow greener.
 
Halfway in the neck

Johnnie from KY said:
I couldn't find out how to email you so I'll just put it here. I have some of this GI 322 and I also have some H322. Early 90's stuff. Is this stuff like 8208? I have never shot any of this in my PPC. Is it affected by temperature and humidity like 8208 or is it like 133? I would like to try some of it , where should I start with my loads? Thanks. Johnnie
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Put the GI away from the house. If the lid is rusty or it smells "scorched", destroy it.

If it still smells like gunpowder - halfway in the neck for a 6PPC is a good start.
 
My guess is that 8208 and Gi 322 were out of the same litter, at worst
very close cousins. Both shoot super and both have an odd scent. Can't
understand why it cannot be reproduced.
 
In the late seventies, 322 (Scottish) was also the standard powder of choice in the 6PPC. I was a rebel and used H4895 (28.5 gr). One fellow used 748; quite successfully too. I still like 4895 but I'm considered to be out of touch these days. Regards, Bill.
 
"Johnnie, bring it to Johnson City and we will shoot it."

Jerry,

Your Best Post of the Year certificate is in the mail!

Tony
 
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"Can't understand why it [8208] cannot be reproduced."

Bob

As I understand it, Lou Murdica was in the process of having this done. I'm not sure how things are progressing.

Tony
 
I wonder

Bob Kingsbury said:
My guess is that 8208 and Gi 322 were out of the same litter, at worst
very close cousins. Both shoot super and both have an odd scent. Can't
understand why it cannot be reproduced.
Click to expand...

Something I am wondering about, according to a contact I have at ADI one of the 8208's was called IMR 8208M and it was coated with a chemical called Ethylene Dimethacrylate. This coating is supposedly what may makes some of the 8208 as user friendly as it is.

There were several lots of 8208 that got repackaged as 322/T/T32/GI322. One of the lots was designated Lot 45710 and so on. What I am wondering is if the stuff that was sold as GI322, did it have a particular coating that caused this unusual breakdown.

This powder we see as 8208 was conjured up during the Robert McNamara's Whiz Kids era. And we all remember how successful these turkeys were!! A lot of Ameican GI's got killed in Nam because of some of this "brilliant" bunch of egotists.

All IMR basic composition is supposedly the same goop, so the unusual deterioration problem is probably not caused by the IMR formulation. Different coatings and different grain shapes is what controls the burn rate. I have some of Bruce Hodgdon's original 4831 and it still shoots the same as it did in the 1950's.

As to Bob's question about why 8208 can not be produced, it can. The rest of this answer is a loong story.
 
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