MOA is best I can get out of my Mod 70
- Thread starter Worker
- Start date
M
Montana Pete
Guest
I would imagine this is a standard weight sporter rifle. Probably a hunter's "stock" barrel -- nothing heavy or special?
Frankly, if you are getting MOA out of it with any regularity, I would say you are doing pretty well.
I have a Model 54 Winchester, which was the immediate precesssor of the Model 70. It's in .270 Win. The rifle is standard except for a Timney target trigger. I get MOA with it frequently, including recent groups of 11/16 in. and 5/8 in. The rifle won't do it all day-- but I usually get a couple of 5-shot targets worth saving each trip to the range. I consider this an exceptional rifle, and I consider myself lucky to own it.
This idea that off-the-shelf sporter weight rifles are supposed to shoot these fantastic groups -- probably results from too many folks reading posts by liars on these forums. There's some outright lying, some exaggeration, and instances where a rifle has shot a couple of exceptional groups over an entire summer, and the guy writing the post makes it sound like most of his groups are like that.
Basing expectations on this lying or exaggeration, if a sporter rifle isn't delivering -- like -- 1/2 MOA, the shooter feels he is being cheated somehow.
I have looked over the shoulder of many shooters at the local range, many of them with very expensive or even customized rifles, and I see what they are getting. The idea that a high percentage of off-the-shelf sporter rifles can shoot MOA all day -- pure bunk.
Frankly, if you are getting MOA out of it with any regularity, I would say you are doing pretty well.
I have a Model 54 Winchester, which was the immediate precesssor of the Model 70. It's in .270 Win. The rifle is standard except for a Timney target trigger. I get MOA with it frequently, including recent groups of 11/16 in. and 5/8 in. The rifle won't do it all day-- but I usually get a couple of 5-shot targets worth saving each trip to the range. I consider this an exceptional rifle, and I consider myself lucky to own it.
This idea that off-the-shelf sporter weight rifles are supposed to shoot these fantastic groups -- probably results from too many folks reading posts by liars on these forums. There's some outright lying, some exaggeration, and instances where a rifle has shot a couple of exceptional groups over an entire summer, and the guy writing the post makes it sound like most of his groups are like that.
Basing expectations on this lying or exaggeration, if a sporter rifle isn't delivering -- like -- 1/2 MOA, the shooter feels he is being cheated somehow.
I have looked over the shoulder of many shooters at the local range, many of them with very expensive or even customized rifles, and I see what they are getting. The idea that a high percentage of off-the-shelf sporter rifles can shoot MOA all day -- pure bunk.
R
Ralph Grant
Guest
Winchester Model 70 Sporter in 270
I have an old Winchester 1966 deer rifle in 270 given to me by my dad (If only the old man would have bought it three years prior!).
Cold bore I can shoot the eye out of just about anything at 100 yards. Funny thing is that the second shot is about 1-1/2 up and 1/2" to the right. The third shot is about 1-3/4" up and 3/4" to the right and it stays on about 1-1/2MOA there for another 5 rounds. I guess thats about a 2-1/2" group or worse at 100 yards.
That gun has probably taken enough deer to fill a tractor trailer and has been carried about a million miles either on someones back or in the window of an old Ford.
Darndest thing I have ever seen. I guess you gotta get them deer on the first shot with that rifle. Worthless for target shooting however.
I have an old Winchester 1966 deer rifle in 270 given to me by my dad (If only the old man would have bought it three years prior!).
Cold bore I can shoot the eye out of just about anything at 100 yards. Funny thing is that the second shot is about 1-1/2 up and 1/2" to the right. The third shot is about 1-3/4" up and 3/4" to the right and it stays on about 1-1/2MOA there for another 5 rounds. I guess thats about a 2-1/2" group or worse at 100 yards.
That gun has probably taken enough deer to fill a tractor trailer and has been carried about a million miles either on someones back or in the window of an old Ford.
Darndest thing I have ever seen. I guess you gotta get them deer on the first shot with that rifle. Worthless for target shooting however.
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M
murphy
Guest
To Worker.
My yardstick for hunting rifles in the 270 class is that they should be able to put 3 shots off a clean cold barrel into .8" or better most of the time under calm conditions. The only rifle that I have owned in recent times that couldn't do it was Kimber 84 in 308Win. and I moved it on. I think it is unfair to expect light weight sporters that shoot big charges of powder and heat the barrel up quickly to shoot consistent sub moa 5 shot groups, although I know that there are some that can do it. The biggest enemy of relatively cheap production rifles is copper fouling. Because they are made to a price, and I think "Big Green" is guilty of this in recent times, they cut corners and don't give the barrel it's proper internal finish in some models. Some poor smuck buys it and it shoots well for about 20 rounds, then suddenly the accuracy is gone. He takes it to a gunsmith and they pull it to pieces trying to figure out what went wrong. That sort of rifle can still be a good friend if you develop your loads on a clean barrel and keep it that way. Am not sure if trueing it up would help, changing your expectations is a lot cheaper.
My yardstick for hunting rifles in the 270 class is that they should be able to put 3 shots off a clean cold barrel into .8" or better most of the time under calm conditions. The only rifle that I have owned in recent times that couldn't do it was Kimber 84 in 308Win. and I moved it on. I think it is unfair to expect light weight sporters that shoot big charges of powder and heat the barrel up quickly to shoot consistent sub moa 5 shot groups, although I know that there are some that can do it. The biggest enemy of relatively cheap production rifles is copper fouling. Because they are made to a price, and I think "Big Green" is guilty of this in recent times, they cut corners and don't give the barrel it's proper internal finish in some models. Some poor smuck buys it and it shoots well for about 20 rounds, then suddenly the accuracy is gone. He takes it to a gunsmith and they pull it to pieces trying to figure out what went wrong. That sort of rifle can still be a good friend if you develop your loads on a clean barrel and keep it that way. Am not sure if trueing it up would help, changing your expectations is a lot cheaper.
the rifle may do better, or it may not. its a hunting rifle, what do you honestly need it to do. i have a mod70 featherweight in 270WSM, best 5 shot group ever was .33". on average it does a hair under 3/4" sometimes better, sometimes slightly worse. with that skinny barrel, i allow alot of time between shots. if i heat the barrel up, its an 1 1/4" rifle. i have another 270WSM, a heavy barrel varmint gun that will do under 1/2" all day long. the cartridge is plenty accurate.
Boyd Allen
Active member
You said that it has been bedded. I have found that there is considerable variability in bedding jobs, and that model 70s are trickier to get right than say 700 Remingtons.
Saw some picture of Neska's bedding job I'm afraid to look
I had a gun smith bed this rifle but he didn't free float the bbl channel . I don't know why. He has since past away. Any how you all have posted some very wise comments. Thanks. Just last Saturday I was shooting Berger 140 VLD bullet seated into the lands ( Next trip maybe I'll stop that practice) 1st shot 1'1/4 high 50' fps slower then previous week.2nd shot on the money about same velocity,3,4and 5th shots are low and to the left an 1''.( All velocities SD were 10 to 15 FPS)) Previous week I sighted it 1" high but in a 1/2 " 3 shot group. I'm sure of my scope mount I wonder if my scope is knocked out Bushnell elite 6500 2.5x16x50MM. Then I shot some Hornady 110 V-Max and they were on target with about MOA . I don't want to blow my hard earned for a few 10ths of an inch. Coyote isn't gonna know the difference.
I had a gun smith bed this rifle but he didn't free float the bbl channel . I don't know why. He has since past away. Any how you all have posted some very wise comments. Thanks. Just last Saturday I was shooting Berger 140 VLD bullet seated into the lands ( Next trip maybe I'll stop that practice) 1st shot 1'1/4 high 50' fps slower then previous week.2nd shot on the money about same velocity,3,4and 5th shots are low and to the left an 1''.( All velocities SD were 10 to 15 FPS)) Previous week I sighted it 1" high but in a 1/2 " 3 shot group. I'm sure of my scope mount I wonder if my scope is knocked out Bushnell elite 6500 2.5x16x50MM. Then I shot some Hornady 110 V-Max and they were on target with about MOA . I don't want to blow my hard earned for a few 10ths of an inch. Coyote isn't gonna know the difference.
Boyd Allen
Active member
If the barrel was free floated before bedding the action, and then a pressure point put back, maybe....but if you have the original pressure point that the stock was made with, it was never bedded correctly, and the late gunsmith's work needs fixing.
Boyd Allen
Active member
yes
M
Montana Pete
Guest
This seems hard to accept without someone actually seeing you do it. Since I do not actually go to the range with you and see you shoot, I am reluctant to make a judgment. But I do think this kind of shooting should be witnessed to be accepted.
J
Julian
Guest
270 wsm
Light barreled sporter rifles are not target rifles, so don't expect the same accuracy. Your rifle was designed for hunting, which means portability and reliabillity are going to be second to accuracy. 1 MOA for a hunting rifle is pretty good as far as I am concerned, you should enjoy it for what your Winchester is designed to do.
I have to go with Montana Pete on the accuracy question. There is no way to evaluate claims of accuracy on a website. Inflated claims of accuracy and precision make for unrealistic expectation for the readers. Worker's post of shooting 1 MOA with a hunting rifle, and a magnum load to boot is pretty good. He should be bragging and not worrying about what is wrong with the rifle.
Julian
Light barreled sporter rifles are not target rifles, so don't expect the same accuracy. Your rifle was designed for hunting, which means portability and reliabillity are going to be second to accuracy. 1 MOA for a hunting rifle is pretty good as far as I am concerned, you should enjoy it for what your Winchester is designed to do.
I have to go with Montana Pete on the accuracy question. There is no way to evaluate claims of accuracy on a website. Inflated claims of accuracy and precision make for unrealistic expectation for the readers. Worker's post of shooting 1 MOA with a hunting rifle, and a magnum load to boot is pretty good. He should be bragging and not worrying about what is wrong with the rifle.
Julian
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But what bugs me is !
Seems like point of impact changes from weekend to weekend. (That's not the case with my HART barreled Rem 700 6x284). I'm thinking of having a pillar bedding job done on it. Problem its already been glass bedded.( I'm wondering just how good of a job was done,I've never removed stock to examine it) Wouldn't the new gun smith have to remove the old stuff ? So more $$$$$ Dang maybe I ought to down load some directions and do it my self. I can get a dremo type tool.
Seems like point of impact changes from weekend to weekend. (That's not the case with my HART barreled Rem 700 6x284). I'm thinking of having a pillar bedding job done on it. Problem its already been glass bedded.( I'm wondering just how good of a job was done,I've never removed stock to examine it) Wouldn't the new gun smith have to remove the old stuff ? So more $$$$$ Dang maybe I ought to down load some directions and do it my self. I can get a dremo type tool.
D
docsleepy
Guest
Golly, I would suggest that you bite the bullet and look at some web articles on how to bed a rifle. There are quite a few. If you go to www.savageshooters.com, they have educational articles -- but they are not at all the only place.
It isn't rocket science. It is merely making a "glue mold" of the action. The trick is to think it through so the glue doesn't "lock" the action -- like, by getting around a hole or something where it can form a plug.
You figure out where in the STOCK you want the glue. You use a dremel to remove some of the old stuff in those places so that the new glue will be a reasonable thickness (1/16 in? maybe, or more). You build play-do dams to stop the glue from going other places. READ AND LOOK AT THE PHOTOS.
You use masking tape to protect areas that you don't want glue to stick on the outside--when you lay the action into the gluey mess, glue is going to rise up and overflow a bit!
You use a couple coats of shoe polish on the action to absolutely prevent glue from sticking to IT.
You get some LONG screws, and cut off their heads, screw them into your action, and practice laying the action into the stock before you put any glue anywhere. Then later one, you use these same screws to lay the action into the stock. Put a little masking tape on the screws so they'll center, and also shoepolish.
You put masking tape somewhere around the barrel so that it centers in the forearm.
Usually you remove the magazine and trigger, or else you get real creative with some sort of sticky plastic to protect them, and then shoepolish THAT.
You sit back and think hard, "could anything here produce a mechanical lock???" before you do the dirty deed.
Use DEVCON epoxy putty (you can get it from Grainger.com) as the glue and you'll have 45 minutes. If you never worked with glues before, practice with some devcon on some pieces of wood beforehand.
Once you assemble the gluey mess--on some sort of rifle rest so it doesn't all fall over -- you use electrical tape or something stretchy to bind the action to the stock while it glues. The tape around the barrel is centering the barrel. If you have pillars, they are putting the action at the right height (I strongly recommend pillars).
Even if you don't do it yourself, if you read all about it, you will understand what your gunsmith is doing.
I'm a beginner and I've done two bedding jobs. The first was an all day long prep affair. Now I have a little box with all the necessary "stuff". If you're in a club, you may be able to find someone who has done it before who can coach you; otherwise, hunt for a gunsmith who knows how.
my .02 worth. You can get into trouble doing it, but if you read enough and think it through, it really isn't that difficult to do in your own kitchen.
It isn't rocket science. It is merely making a "glue mold" of the action. The trick is to think it through so the glue doesn't "lock" the action -- like, by getting around a hole or something where it can form a plug.
You figure out where in the STOCK you want the glue. You use a dremel to remove some of the old stuff in those places so that the new glue will be a reasonable thickness (1/16 in? maybe, or more). You build play-do dams to stop the glue from going other places. READ AND LOOK AT THE PHOTOS.
You use masking tape to protect areas that you don't want glue to stick on the outside--when you lay the action into the gluey mess, glue is going to rise up and overflow a bit!
You use a couple coats of shoe polish on the action to absolutely prevent glue from sticking to IT.
You get some LONG screws, and cut off their heads, screw them into your action, and practice laying the action into the stock before you put any glue anywhere. Then later one, you use these same screws to lay the action into the stock. Put a little masking tape on the screws so they'll center, and also shoepolish.
You put masking tape somewhere around the barrel so that it centers in the forearm.
Usually you remove the magazine and trigger, or else you get real creative with some sort of sticky plastic to protect them, and then shoepolish THAT.
You sit back and think hard, "could anything here produce a mechanical lock???" before you do the dirty deed.
Use DEVCON epoxy putty (you can get it from Grainger.com) as the glue and you'll have 45 minutes. If you never worked with glues before, practice with some devcon on some pieces of wood beforehand.
Once you assemble the gluey mess--on some sort of rifle rest so it doesn't all fall over -- you use electrical tape or something stretchy to bind the action to the stock while it glues. The tape around the barrel is centering the barrel. If you have pillars, they are putting the action at the right height (I strongly recommend pillars).
Even if you don't do it yourself, if you read all about it, you will understand what your gunsmith is doing.
I'm a beginner and I've done two bedding jobs. The first was an all day long prep affair. Now I have a little box with all the necessary "stuff". If you're in a club, you may be able to find someone who has done it before who can coach you; otherwise, hunt for a gunsmith who knows how.
my .02 worth. You can get into trouble doing it, but if you read enough and think it through, it really isn't that difficult to do in your own kitchen.
D
docsleepy
Guest
some people use PAM instead of shoe polish.
The big deal is to be certain the stock will not glue the action. Judicious removal of sticky-outee things, and application of masking tape to cover holes, or playdo, and PAM/shoepolish will be important.
The big deal is to be certain the stock will not glue the action. Judicious removal of sticky-outee things, and application of masking tape to cover holes, or playdo, and PAM/shoepolish will be important.
Go to this site and buy his video on pillar bedding - it is absolutely the best instructions available. I have known Richard for years and he is an excellent smith. The few dollars the video cost can easily be saved in the cost of reloading components after doing a correct pillar bedding job.
http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/forsale6.htm
drover
http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/forsale6.htm
drover
Boyd Allen
Active member
model 70 bedding tips
At the tang, there is a vertical step right behind the threaded hole for the rear action screw. It should have clearance. Also, you will probably strip the action of the trigger and bolt release. the end of the bolt release spring hooks under the bottom of the receiver. If you don't cut the bedding to clear it, your bedding will be high centered at that point. Another thing...I have seen some bedding that just contacts the narrow flat where the rear action screw hole is. This is not enough bedding area for the tang. I like to use the whole tang area making sure that nothing can act as a secondary recoil lug, masking and cutting as needed to achieve this.
At the tang, there is a vertical step right behind the threaded hole for the rear action screw. It should have clearance. Also, you will probably strip the action of the trigger and bolt release. the end of the bolt release spring hooks under the bottom of the receiver. If you don't cut the bedding to clear it, your bedding will be high centered at that point. Another thing...I have seen some bedding that just contacts the narrow flat where the rear action screw hole is. This is not enough bedding area for the tang. I like to use the whole tang area making sure that nothing can act as a secondary recoil lug, masking and cutting as needed to achieve this.
Who can we trust these days ?
Well I removed the stock from the action. I was told he put a Timney trigger in it. I downloaded pictures of timney triggers for my Mod 70. They didn't even look remotely close. Then pictures I've seen of bedding jobs were the length of entire action. This one had "A" bedding compound in the recoil lug area only.It looked kind of sloppy. My local gun smith wants $250.00 to Pillar bed this rifle. Is that a competitive price.He lives just a couple of miles away. His prices sounds high but they're no shipping hassles ?
Well I removed the stock from the action. I was told he put a Timney trigger in it. I downloaded pictures of timney triggers for my Mod 70. They didn't even look remotely close. Then pictures I've seen of bedding jobs were the length of entire action. This one had "A" bedding compound in the recoil lug area only.It looked kind of sloppy. My local gun smith wants $250.00 to Pillar bed this rifle. Is that a competitive price.He lives just a couple of miles away. His prices sounds high but they're no shipping hassles ?
Boyd Allen
Active member
Ship it ....not so much because of the price; how many successful competition rifles has your local smith built?