Measure targets on the wailing wall?

P

P.Ericson

Member
Is there anything, anywhere in the rule books (NBRSA, IBS or WBSF) that states that you aren´t allowed to measure the targets on the wailing wall?

It´s very clear that you aren´t allowed to remove them. I haven´t found anything that says you aren´t allowed to measure, but still some shooters say it´s against the rules. Is there such rule?
 
No

And while we are on the subject, lets clarify another item. The rule book says that a shooter can challenge any target measurement by putting forth a $5 fee, getting a Ref, and having that Ref take the target to the stat house for a re-measure. If the target comes back .009 or more to the shooters favor, he gets his $5 back.

I am sick and tired of shooters saying that in is "poor sportsmanship" to challenge a targets measurement. That is a bunch of crap. IT'S IN THE RULES.

I got a first hand dose of this at The Crawfish, when I decided to shoot my 30BR in the HV 100. I had to protest 4 measurements, because the official was simply not measuring the targets correctly. A good example. Match One was scored as a .202. I could look and see it was smaller, (when a 30 caliber group is completely inside the moth ball with black all around), and after I put up $5, in came back a .152. That is a BIG difference.

I have also, on occasion, had targets that were measured too small, and I will get a Ref and tell him. Heck, if you have a .320 hanging up there, and the scorer wrote .220 on the target, everybody else can see it, so you might just as well get it corrected. Trust me, behind your back they will be saying, "man, ole such and such sure got a break on that one". There is nothing in the Rules that say anything about this, but we are a close knit group. Doing the Honorable Thing is certainly worth more in the eyes of your Peers than a few places higher on the Stat Sheet.

All I want is what I shot, no more, no less. The Rule Book allows a shooter to challenge a measurement. It is a rule no less important than the rule that says a LV or Sporter cannot weigh more than 168 ounces.

I am NOT saying this to slam the official scorers. It is a tough job, and can be very tedious. They are to be commended for sitting there all day long and doing a job that is as bad as picking cotton. They are only human, and can make mistakes. That is why the NBRSA and IBS sees fit to include the measurement challenge rule in the Official Rules of Benchrest.

At our Region Meeting this week end at New Braunfels, I am going to address this to the other Region Members. Perhaps, since more shooters are building 30 caliber Rifles and choosing to shoot them in Group, it is time to place some sort of marking on the target, maybe an orange sticker, so that thy Official Scorer will notice. The same can be said for 22 cal.

Mike Stinnet, who shoots a 30 Cal exclusivly in Group, has been putting up with this for sometime. Trust me, Benchrest is difficult enough without having to worry about getting slighted .055 inch on every target.

If we are going to do it, let's strive to do it right.........jackie
 
There is no way it's "poor sportsmanship". I have scored probably tens of thousands of targets. There is no way that they are all correct.

I try hard to do them all correct - but its impossible. Sometimes you look at the calipers and it says .230 and you write on the target .320. Sometimes you forget to set the calipers back on zero before the next target. Sometimes you use the wrong reticule(s). I have even missed scoring a shot that was way out of the group.

I am not offended if you ask for a remeasure. I actually prefer if you do ask. If I go through a whole match without any remeasures - I know someone didn't get the credit they deserve because of my mistake.

Of course I'm guilty on the other end too - i rarely check my scores at a match to make sure they are correct - probably should.
 
Unsportsmanship

What I dislike, is when someone protests other's targets that have higher scores or smaller groups that theirs. I say "Suck it up"
 
jackie schmidt said:
And while we are on the subject, lets clarify another item. The rule book says that a shooter can challenge any target measurement by putting forth a $5 fee, getting a Ref, and having that Ref take the target to the stat house for a re-measure. If the target comes back .009 or more to the shooters favor, he gets his $5 back.

The re-measurement does not have to be in the shooters favor for him (or her) to get a refund of the $5. It just has vary from the stated measurement by .009 or more. Following is a direct quote from NBRSA rulebook.

The measurement of any target suspected of being
larger or smaller than its stated measurement can be protested
by any competitor, with a fee of $5.00 per target and the
measurement will be changed if there is a difference of .009
inch from the original measurement. If the measurement is
changed, the fee will be returned to the shooter. If the
measurement is not changed, the fee will be sent to NBRSA
Headquarters.
Click to expand...
 
Fred J said:
What I dislike, is when someone protests other's targets that have higher scores or smaller groups that theirs. I say "Suck it up"
Click to expand...

Agreed. Protest your own targets and not someone else's. If we're all honorable and diligent in this, all mistakes will be rectified in the end.
 
But they are not rectified

I will try to post this without so much info as to indicate who I am speaking about.

Some years ago I was at a match and it was brought to my attention that a target for a certain guy (dont even remember whos that was) was measured wrong (smaller than it was). A particular friend of mine mentioned it but told me not to say anything.
That friend would have walked away with a clean sweep in all classes that match and as i remember that year. He won all the rest. It was a hot year for him.
But we that is the rest of us that saw it said nothing and the competitor to whom it belonged either didnt notice or just didnt say anything and he won that class.
And it was noticeably different than what was written on the target.
I think (not that what I think matters) that the rule should be that anyone can challenge a target. Maybe make the fee more if it is not the owner of the target.
Again I am not saying that the competitor who owned that target even noticed it was wrong but then again.....:confused:
 
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Good Advice

I did this one time with no ill intent as to the outcome. We were at Denton, shooting 10-shot Unlimited. (pretty long ago). The targets were hung, and I was sure mine was measured about .030 or so to big. The target just to the right of it was obviously bigger, but had a smaller size recorded. I simply told the Ref that if that target was a .190, (an example), mine was certainly smaller.

Well, they did check mine, and I was right. But what really hacked me off was they took the target to the right, re-measured it, and it came out bigger.

I told them that stunk, all I did was make a reference, by no means did I imply that I wanted the other target re-measured. I felt like crap. They took it upon themselves to check it.

So, just be careful. This is a case where we are our own keeper, not our brothers.........jackie
 
Sportsmanship???

goodgrouper said:
Agreed. Protest your own targets and not someone else's. If we're all honorable and diligent in this, all mistakes will be rectified in the end.
Click to expand...

If a mistake is made on another target/competitor, why wouldn't/shouldn't you bring it to the atttention of the referees?
At a big match recently a competitor was given a 10 when CLEARLY it was a downtown 9. Without any doubt. When confronted the competitor chose not to man up and notify the scorer of the mistake.The target was protested but under the then current rules it could not be protested so the error was left. That rule has been rewritten.
 
Please help me understand

Fred J said:
What I dislike, is when someone protests other's targets that have higher scores or smaller groups that theirs. I say "Suck it up"
Click to expand...

:confused:Fred,

Not trying to start trouble but as I'm relatively new to this game, can't understand why you feel like this.

If indeed there is a legitment error it should be corrected, don't you think?

Suppose the person on who's target the error exists doesn't realize it, but someone else does, albeit who. Why does that meake them a cry baby.

WHITE is WHITE, BLACK is BLACK, FAIR is FAIR.

To ERR is human, to FORGIVE Divine........................

Just trying to understand.:rolleyes:
 
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Then you have a long way to go

Shinny:
It's my opinion and any competitor that let his target go incorrectly scored or label will only have to count for himself. I don't have to like it or live with them. I'm sure you have a name, that I can look for on the wall.

PS; I'm 72 tears of age and have seen many of these type of individuals come and go, over the last 45 years of competition.. Most of the time, not long after such incidents.
 
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i think it is good sportsmanship to point out an error, my advantage, disadvantage or someone elses.

we spend big bucks on the rigs, the developemnet, the transportation, etc...

and to have an accomplishment taken away by a scoring mistake...is a mistake.

point it out...its not whinning, and bs to "suck it up".......i shot it, give me credit...plain and simple....

not asking for anything other than what i shot....and that all others get what they shot....

that is true sportsmanship...not hidding from the truth.

sorry sir, you are wrong on this one.

mike in co
 
You're not doing wrong calling attention to an obviously mistaken measurement. I know a lot of shooters that do not check their targets and wouldn't know. You may be doing others shooters an injustice by not calling attention to it.
Why are we so concerned about being politically correct. I'm so tired of PC that I could just S#%t.
Butch
 
I have never questioned a measurement.
Know why, cause I don't care.From the Super Shoot to the "Mud Puddle Open"., I really don't care, It makes no difference in the way the world turns. "Oh it cost me a hall of fame point",still don't care."But I really won the Super Shoot and Tony only beat me by a mis-measurement",still don't care.Who's barbecuin' what for dinner ? Now, ya got my attention.Beer is p--s warm,now we have a serious problem." I would like my beverages re-chilled,here's $5 for some ice.What's the ruling on warm beverages?
I know when I'm shooting well and when I'm not shooting well and the wailing wall and stat sheet are just a distraction. Most guys spend more time at seeing how well they're shooting then they spend at actually shooting well.
The trophy's just go in a cardboard box in the garage and BR winners are forgotten the day after a match,but the friendships made in this game last a lifetime.
Joel
 
Joel,
I don't think you are getting my point. My thinking for myself is about like you's. But what if 2 or 3 folks are hurt by a measurement and you know it. Is it wrong to point it out? If you really think about it, most people are more concerned about what somebody would think of them for pointing the mistake out than righting a wrong.
Butch
 
Butch,
I'm with you.It usually seems that there are enough "posse's" at the wailing wall sorting out the mis-measurements that my involvement would just be petty and misconstrued.Knowing how many clubs are barely piecing together the personel to run a match these days, I would feel poorly about trying to squeeze out an extra.010 from one of my target.If there was a gross miscalculation or mistake in the asessment of a penality ,especially with a newbies target, I would want the mistakes corrected.
Joel
 
Butch knows the man I was referring to. He was the one hurt and it was all I could do not to say something but I did as my friend requested.

Now I would concede that if someone was standing at the wall measuring everything trying to find a very very minor, not noticeable to the eye mistake that would give them the advantage then that would be out of line but otherwise, If I shot it I want it and the same FAIRNESS for all.
 
Butch Lambert said:
You're not doing wrong calling attention to an obviously mistaken measurement. I know a lot of shooters that do not check their targets and wouldn't know. You may be doing others shooters an injustice by not calling attention to it.
Why are we so concerned about being politically correct. I'm so tired of PC that I could just S#%t.
Butch
Click to expand...

butch and i, agree again...
what is the world comming to..

mike in co
 
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