Lrt me get the score rules right

7) Ties
f) Match Ties
(i) Match winners are to be decided by score, then score plus "x" count, then miss and out
starting with bull number one and continuing through bull 5.
(ii) "Miss and OUT" is the dropping of an "X", 10, 9, etc.
(iii) If a match is still tied, it is broken by the "Miss and OUT" system of the next match.
(iv) In match 5 the yardage aggregate placing breaks a tie.
g) Aggregate Tie
To break a tie in the range aggregate, go to the first match and break the tie by score, then by
score plus "X" count. If the tie still exists go to match 2, match 3, match 4, and match 5. If the
tie is still not broken, use the "Miss and Out" system starting with bull number 1 on match 1 and
proceed until the tie is broken.
h) Grand Aggregate Tie
To break a Grand Aggregate tie, go to the range aggregate of the first yardage completed. Use the
highest score to break the tie. If tie is not broken, go to first match of first yardage completed and
break tie by score and then by score plus "X" count. Then use match 2, 3, 4, and 5 if necessary. If
this does not break the tie, proceed to the matches fired for the second aggregate. If this fails,
return to match 1, bull 1 of the first yardage aggregate and use the "Miss and Out" system.
Proceed until the tie is broken.

This is a cut-and-paste from the IBS Rulebook. Don't know about NBRSA. "Miss and Out" is a pseudonym for the Creedmoor system. No wipe-outs.
 
coondogkid said:
Is'nt it 250, then the most X, then the most wipe outs?
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Wipe outs, in the IBS score game, are not used to break yardage or agg ties. If there are two 250-25X's shot in lets say a 100 yard match, then there is a tie for 1st place. Wipeouts are only used to determine if a 250-25X record is broken. A 250-25X record is based on wipeouts. --Greg
 
glp said:
Wipe outs, in the IBS score game, are not used to break yardage or agg ties. If there are two 250-25X's shot in lets say a 100 yard match, then there is a tie for 1st place. Wipeouts are only used to determine if a 250-25X record is broken. A 250-25X record is based on wipeouts. --Greg
Click to expand...
To expand on what Greg said which is correct, counting of wipeouts is not authorized for range level scoring in IBS. Something I read on another thread leads me to believe David Halblom got NBRSA to reconsider the counting of wipeouts for next year as well. Counting wipeouts is a very subjective thing IMO not reliably done at range level. Just look at how many 250-25x targets are submitted each year in IBS and less than half are certified as actually 25x.
Dick
 
coondogkid said:
Are the VFS rules and the hunter class rules the same?
Click to expand...

Coondog,

Starting w/ your first post, Yes, but wipeouts don't come into play until there is a tie at 250-25X.

And for your second post, in the NBRSA, HBR and VFS are covered by the same rules, except for the rifle definitions. And all VFS rifles compete as 1 class, whether they are LV or HV

David
 
Dick, I disagree. You use a reticle to acsertain a wipeout just like you do the value of any other shot..........jackie
 
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Jackie, the question was/is, "Is counting wipeouts used to break ties?" IMO counting wipeouts should be left up to the record committee.
 
In an NBRSA Match, if there is a 25x tie, then the Scorer must know how to use the reticle to score wipeouts, as this will determine the final outcome.
I scored quite a few wipeouts last year, as we were using the old NBRSA rules to break ties. You center the reticle on the shot, and if the reticle wipes out the X dot, then it is a wipeput. This is a game of thousanths of an inch, I have seen many shots that still had a trace of the dot left when viewed by the naked eye, but upon scoring it with the reticle, it did indeed wipe the dot out. Anything close I let a Ref look as well.

This is no different than seeing a shot that is very close to the 10 ring, and at first glance, does appear to be a nine. But the rericle can sometimes prove different.

Of course, it is up to the official scorer to know how to use a reticle, but then, that is a whole different story. And I am assuming that a scorer DOES use a reticle.........jackie
 
Determining a wipeout...

It doesn't matter to me whether we use Creedmore or wipeout rules, but I have been scoring Hunter Rifle and VFS targets since 1979...and my opinion is the wipeout is easier to determine...either the bullet hole covers/removes the dot or it doesn't...I don't have to use a scoring reticle...but when measuring a best edge score on a target it gets darned hard to put that reticle over the exact center of the bullet hole, due to the way some targets tear and some bullets don't leave a nice round black ring on the paper....
One thing that is a little strange using the Creedmore rule...is that I and many others don't shoot the record bulls in their numerical order...so to score them in that order doesn't tell you who shot the first 10-X score...In my opinion it is like saying let's pull target #5 and start with it...I know that there is no easy way to apply the Creedmore rule other that a known numerical sequence...but as I stated...in my opinion the wipeout is easier to determine and I DON'T use a reticle it is either gone or completely covered by the bullet mark..


Eddie in Texas
 
Wow, Eddie, this might be the first time I have disagreed with you on a subject.
The naked eye is NOT a good way to score a wipeout. Several times last year, I had quite a few wipeouts that when viewed with the eye, there was a smidgen of dot left. But, upon placing the reticle on the shot, the reticle did indeed wipe the dot out. Keep in mind, I score ties for 2d and third more than 1st, as we do give awards thru 3d place. And, as Varmint for score becomes more popular, and more Shooters put a maximum effort into the game, the scoring of targets will become even more criticle.

Maybe the NBRSA needs an official Reticle Tool like the IBS uses, (that is what I use), and a little video on how to use it. Maybe they already have one.

Like I said before. This is a game of thousanths of an inch.
 
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Neil Jones makes a scoring reticle. I was told it was approved by NBRSA as an official scoring device. IF you are not using a scoring device then how can you keep everyone on a fair playing field? There has been ALOT of heated discussion, name calling, your momma wears combat boots and drives a garbage truck, etc. in regards to the new scoring rules. In 2012 we will have a voice in regards to VFS. The 2012 NBRSA VFS Nationals is where we can all come into agreement on the issues some of us dissagree with.
 
Eddie Harren said:
I was not aware that the NBRSA rules accept counting wipeouts as a tie breaker method. My apologies.
Click to expand...

Back in 2010...it was voted in at the annual meeting (I think) replacing the Creedmore rule...It evidently didn't make everyone happy as it was reversed at the 2011 meeting...

In response to the replies about judging wipeouts without a reticle...Yes I am aware that the scoring reticle is the offical NBRSA scoring device, but as Dick stated "do you realize how many 25x scores are reversed by the scoring committee"...I believe that too many scorers are miss-centering the scoring reticle...I always make sure that a wipeout is verified by the other match director at our shoots...

Now all that aside...the tie-breaker rule will revert back to the Creedmore rule in 2012...and the wipeout rule will probably 'never" be used in it's new format (tie-breakers when more than on 250-25x is fired at a match)...I don't see that happening in the NBRSA in 2012...:eek:


Eddie in Texas
 
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The scoring reticle that the IBS uses is the same one that is the official NBRSA reticle. The reticle has been only the official scoring device in use for the NBRSA since HBR became a National Course of Fire in the late 70's.
 
eww1350 said:
It doesn't matter to me whether we use Creedmore or wipeout rules, but I have been scoring Hunter Rifle and VFS targets since 1979...and my opinion is the wipeout is easier to determine...either the bullet hole covers/removes the dot or it doesn't...I don't have to use a scoring reticle...but when measuring a best edge score on a target it gets darned hard to put that reticle over the exact center of the bullet hole, due to the way some targets tear and some bullets don't leave a nice round black ring on the paper....
One thing that is a little strange using the Creedmore rule...is that I and many others don't shoot the record bulls in their numerical order...so to score them in that order doesn't tell you who shot the first 10-X score...In my opinion it is like saying let's pull target #5 and start with it...I know that there is no easy way to apply the Creedmore rule other that a known numerical sequence...but as I stated...in my opinion the wipeout is easier to determine and I DON'T use a reticle it is either gone or completely covered by the bullet mark..


Eddie in Texas
Click to expand...

The order in which the bulls are shot make no difference in the Creedmore. The score for the match (match 1, match 2, etc.) is what determines the winner or the place holder. One would not even have to look at the targets and bulls until such time as competitors are tied EXACTLY the same, i.e., they dropped an X or point on the same exact target and were tied on ALL other targets. Then you would have to back to the target where the X or point was dropped and go to bull 1. But the occurrence or need for that is VERY rare.
 
David Halblom said:
The order in which the bulls are shot make no difference in the Creedmore. The score for the match (match 1, match 2, etc.) is what determines the winner or the place holder. One would not even have to look at the targets and bulls until such time as competitors are tied EXACTLY the same, i.e., they dropped an X or point on the same exact target and were tied on ALL other targets. Then you would have to back to the target where the X or point was dropped and go to bull 1. But the occurrence or need for that is VERY rare.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ ... if two or more shooters shoot exactly the same score @100yds (any score other than 250-25x)...the Creedmore rule requires that you go to the first record target and if they tie on that target (same score and x count) you go to the first record bull then to the second and so on until there is a miss and out...meaning a lesser score on that record bull...we had such a thing has at our club where 3 shooters shot a 250-18x @ 100 yds...one shooter shot a 50-5x on target #1 the other two shot a 50-4x so first place was decided, but second and third was based on target score then record bull score starting with bull #1, then #2, then#3, etc..
Example...if two shooters tied on total score and on the first record target with a 50-3x the tie would be broken starting with record bull #1, then #2, and so on...


Eddie in Texas
 
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