LAPUA 220 Russian cases down the drain?

mturner said:
I wouldn't resurrect an old thread without some good evidence of what has changed with Lapua brass hardness. The blue box alloy has 11% less zinc than the older brass. While this is based on the 6BR case, if Lapua will go to a softer alloy for one, then they would be willing to do it on another.

Michael
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Well, at least we finally have something.

The reality is, if Lapua 220 Russian is now different, we might have to revamp the way we have been shooting it for the past 20+ years. The days of the "Upper load widow" might be gone. Unless you want to go through cases at a aggravating rate.

If they are, I see no reason to purchase any more Lapua 220 Russian and going through all of the procedures necessary to make it into a 6PPC. Just purchase Norma and develop loads in the " medium window" with it.
 
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Boyd Allen said:
Serious question: Has anyone tried the upper node with the newer Norma "double struck" 6PPC brass?
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In the video with Lou Murdica, he says he tried to blow a primer in the new Norma brass, and was able to slightly loosen it. But if I recall, he compared it's pressure handling capabilities to be about equal to Lapua. You might go back and watch the video since this is coming from memory.

Jackie - here is the link from where I got my information: http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/x-ray-spectrometry-of-cartridge-brass/

I may be going out on a limb here, but my guess is that Lapua has gone to a softer alloy to aid in the drawing process. It is easier to draw the softer brass, and hold greater concentricity.

I also wonder if Lapua would be willing to go back to the brass with the higher zinc content if enough people complained.

I also believe a PPC reamer with a .266" to .267" neck diameter would be a good all around reamer. It would not be as simple as the .269" very low neck turn reamer for Lapua brass, but not near as bad as the .262" neck. This reamer would allow a very light turn on Norma 6 PPC brass, and a fairy eash neck turn on Lapua 220 brass. I would also slightly short chamber for the Norma brass to deal with the .010" headspace. The slightly short chamber would be fine for the Lapua brass if the shoulder neck junction was bumped slightly before fire-forming to PPC.
The 6mm flat base bullets that I make have a pressure ring measurement of .2435". When I seat this bullet into a current production unturned Norma 6 PPC case, the neck diameter measures .2656".

I know Starline makes quality brass with a high 30% zinc content. I wonder if they would consider making PPC brass, and wonder if they would be willing to go to extra quality control steps in order to reach our match grade standards.

They basically said "no way" that BR shooters are way to something or another. The real question is this. The PPC has been around for about 40 years now. Why has Lapua listened to a lot of shooters, and produced a lot of different calibers for shooters, but have failed to put the 6 PPC into production? I don't think even Lapua could come up with a logical answer. I think the PPC shooters should demand them to make the 6 PPC, and if they refuse, just don't buy any 220 Russian brass. Soon they would come around. It's not like we would be asking for a lot, just a different neck and body form die, and headstamp change.


Michael
 
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mturner said:
I think the PPC shooters should demand them to make the 6 PPC, and if they refuse, just don't buy any 220 Russian brass. Soon they would come around. It's not like we would be asking for a lot, just a different neck and body form die, and headstamp change.
Michael
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Stop it Michael, you're making too much sense.
 
Taking Action

When I think about Lapua making 6 PPC shooters fire form their brass for 20 years rather than simply offering cases that fit out of the box, it actually bothers me a lot. I consider this poor customer service. This probably comes as a surprise to most of you, since after all, I mainly shoot a 30-30. The reason it bothers me is simple. Some of the best guys I have ever know are competition shooters, and I believe they should be accommodated better than Lapua is currently treating them. I shoot a 6 PPC on rare occasions, but would shoot it a little more often if Lapua would really get in the game. I'm asking as many shooters as possible to send a message to Lapua in the feedback section of their website. Another thing you can do is use Norma brass until they fix their problems. Below is a link to their feedback, and a letter that I just sent. I'm not real good at writing letters in a professional way, but maybe it will serve as a guide for some who are more creative writers.

http://www.lapua.com/en/resources/contact.html


I'm writing you because of some valid complaints that the 6 PPC shooters have. First of all, I feel that they have not been accommodated very well when it comes to short range benchrest. You can say that you have been supplying 220 Russian brass of excellent quality for years, but I ask "who shoots the 220 Russian in short range benchrest competition". I personally do not know of any that do. The majority (99.9%) of all short range benchrest shooters use the 6 PPC. Why do you bring the brass down to 220 Russian knowing that the end user will have to fireform the brass to make the 6 PPC? You have been quick to make calibers like the 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 Grendel, 6mm BR Norma, 6.5X47 Lapua, 300 AAC Blackout, but when it comes to the most used short range benchrest caliber, you have not taken care of your customers. You would only need to change the neck and body form dies, and the headstamp. Why is that too much to ask?

Another compaint is the brass alloy is softer in the new blue box. The older gold box brass was harder. Recent testing has shown evidence of 25% zinc instead of 36% zinc in the older brass. I realize it is easier to draw softer brass, but the shooters are complaining of the newer 220 Russian brass not shooting the hotter loads. I realize they could back the loads down, but many shooters aren't seeing the same accuracy with the lighter loads. Some have felt that the "Lapua advantage" is now outweighed by the ease of using Norma 6 PPC brass. Especially since the higher pressure advantage of the Lapua brass is no longer there.

I believe the best thing for shooters to do at this time is use Norma 6 PPC brass until Lapua starts making 6 PPC brass. The Norma brass has proven itself as a quality product, that will handle loads of equal pressure to the current Lapua offering. This letter was not written to upset you in any way. Just simply to explain to you how I, and other shooters are starting to feel.

Michael
 
Check this out...

forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/lapua-blue-box-brass-alloy.3934345/#post-37055479

Hopefully this link will work. Thought some might like to see it.
 
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mturner said:
When I think about Lapua making 6 PPC shooters fire form their brass for 20 years rather than simply offering cases that fit out of the box, it actually bothers me a lot. I consider this poor customer service. This probably comes as a surprise to most of you, since after all, I mainly shoot a 30-30. The reason it bothers me is simple. Some of the best guys I have ever know are competition shooters, and I believe they should be accommodated better than Lapua is currently treating them. I shoot a 6 PPC on rare occasions, but would shoot it a little more often if Lapua would really get in the game. I'm asking as many shooters as possible to send a message to Lapua in the feedback section of their website. Another thing you can do is use Norma brass until they fix their problems. Below is a link to their feedback, and a letter that I just sent. I'm not real good at writing letters in a professional way, but maybe it will serve as a guide for some who are more creative writers.

http://www.lapua.com/en/resources/contact.html


I'm writing you because of some valid complaints that the 6 PPC shooters have. First of all, I feel that they have not been accommodated very well when it comes to short range benchrest. You can say that you have been supplying 220 Russian brass of excellent quality for years, but I ask "who shoots the 220 Russian in short range benchrest competition". I personally do not know of any that do. The majority (99.9%) of all short range benchrest shooters use the 6 PPC. Why do you bring the brass down to 220 Russian knowing that the end user will have to fireform the brass to make the 6 PPC? You have been quick to make calibers like the 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 Grendel, 6mm BR Norma, 6.5X47 Lapua, 300 AAC Blackout, but when it comes to the most used short range benchrest caliber, you have not taken care of your customers. You would only need to change the neck and body form dies, and the headstamp. Why is that too much to ask?

Another compaint is the brass alloy is softer in the new blue box. The older gold box brass was harder. Recent testing has shown evidence of 25% zinc instead of 36% zinc in the older brass. I realize it is easier to draw softer brass, but the shooters are complaining of the newer 220 Russian brass not shooting the hotter loads. I realize they could back the loads down, but many shooters aren't seeing the same accuracy with the lighter loads. Some have felt that the "Lapua advantage" is now outweighed by the ease of using Norma 6 PPC brass. Especially since the higher pressure advantage of the Lapua brass is no longer there.

I believe the best thing for shooters to do at this time is use Norma 6 PPC brass until Lapua starts making 6 PPC brass. The Norma brass has proven itself as a quality product, that will handle loads of equal pressure to the current Lapua offering. This letter was not written to upset you in any way. Just simply to explain to you how I, and other shooters are starting to feel.

Michael
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You will get the typical "corporate response".

"Our brass meets all of the requirements for the SAAMI specifications of the 6PPC cartridge".

Michael, what is the average wall thickness of the necks of the Norma Brass?
 
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mturner said:
That's what mine are also. The thing is this. Lapua 220 Russian brass does not meet the chamber specs for a 6 PPC.

Michael
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Why would it meet specs for a 6ppc when the headstamp is 220 Russian? Just asking. They aren't making this brass for BR shooters. It is for the European market of 220 Russian shooters. It just happens to be useful for blowing out to a non Saami 6ppc chamber.
 
rpollock said:
Why would it meet specs for a 6ppc when the headstamp is 220 Russian? Just asking. They aren't making this brass for BR shooters. It is for the European market of 220 Russian shooters. It just happens to be useful for blowing out to a non Saami 6ppc chamber.
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That's my point. They should be making 6PPC brass so it will meet 6PPC specs. The market is there, since the 6PPC is the most popular cartridge in short range BR. They make a lot of brass for other BR competition, like the 6.5 Creedmoor, 6mmBR, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5X47 Lapua. Why do they care less about the short range BR guys?

Michael
 
mturner said:
That's my point. They should be making 6PPC brass so it will meet 6PPC specs. The market is there, since the 6PPC is the most popular cartridge in short range BR. They make a lot of brass for other BR competition, like the 6.5 Creedmoor, 6mmBR, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5X47 Lapua. Why do they care less about the short range BR guys?

Michael
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How about the market is very small compared to those other cartridges? There are manufacturers of 6ppc brass ie Norma and Sako, you can always use those. The problem for manufacturers is that almost no one in short range BR uses the saami 6ppc cartridge, so manufacturers say why bother? What we shoot is far enough removed from the factory cartridge to be almost a different cartridge.
 
rpollock said:
How about the market is very small compared to those other cartridges? There are manufacturers of 6ppc brass ie Norma and Sako, you can always use those. The problem for manufacturers is that almost no one in short range BR uses the saami 6ppc cartridge, so manufacturers say why bother? What we shoot is far enough removed from the factory cartridge to be almost a different cartridge.
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I don't believe the market is very small compared to the other cartridges I mentioned. I also don't believe the cartridge is so exotic that Lapua can't easily make a 6PPC case that is ready for neck turning only. Most of the PPC chambers are very much standardized with the exception of neck diameter and freebore length. We headspace our chambers with a typical 6PPC headspace gauge. The base diameters of our reamers are properly sized for 220 Russian brass, so the base dimensions would go unchanged. This isn't rocket science, most likely just a manufacturer's unwillingness to accommodate a fairly large shooing sport. While the Norma brass is an option, Lapua quality control on the 220 Russian is still superior to the Norma brass.

Michael
 
I think you might find the reason that Lapua don't make 6PPC cases is because the only chambering that has C.I.P specifications is the 6PPC USA not the 6PPC that we use in Benchrest rifles.

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think any European manufacturer will produce cartridges or reloading components for a chambering that does not have C.I.P chamber specs.

Ian
 
mturner said:
I don't believe the market is very small compared to the other cartridges I mentioned. This isn't rocket science, most likely just a manufacturer's unwillingness to accommodate a fairly large shooing sport.

Michael
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I don't think short range BR is a fairly large shooting sport, although I wish it was. it is a drop in the bucket for most manufactures and vendors.
 
I believe Norma is Swedish. Their brass was developed for the 6PPC benchrest chamber. Apparently they felt like the market was large enough, regardless of how small it actually may be. Their brass is slightly short by about .010" from a standard PPC headspace gauge. It is not too short because the standards don't exist, it is too short because they made it too short. Maybe they will correct it someday.

Maybe Lapua would be willing if about 250 people asked for the PPC case. There are way more than that in the way of PPC shooters, but it is like getting people to get out and vote. In the time it would take to neck turn 10 pieces of brass, anyone can go online and ask Lapua to make PPC brass.

Tomorrow I will post the address where we can send our brass out for free alloy and hardness testing. I hope others will get involved. I'm far more involved than most when it comes to trying to get something done, and I have the least motive by far.

Michael
 
mturner said:
I believe Norma is Swedish. Their brass was developed for the 6PPC benchrest chamber. Apparently they felt like the market was large enough, regardless of how small it actually may be. Their brass is slightly short by about .010" from a standard PPC headspace gauge. It is not too short because the standards don't exist, it is too short because they made it too short. Maybe they will correct it someday.i

Maybe Lapua would be willing if about 250 people asked for the PPC case. There are way more than that in the way of PPC shooters, but it is like getting people to get out and vote. In the time it would take to neck turn 10 pieces of brass, anyone can go online and ask Lapua to make PPC brass.

Tomorrow I will post the address where we can send our brass out for free alloy and hardness testing. I hope others will get involved. I'm far more involved than most when it comes to trying to get something done, and I have the least motive by far.

Michael
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Michael, what good does it do to have a PPC case from Lapua if it does not have the same alloy content as the 220 Russian of years past. (If indeed, something has changed).

I have always believed that much of the success of the 6PPC through the past decades was predicated on the Lapua 220's parent case to take the high pressures many shoot, the so called "upper load window" which by accounts exceeds 70,000 psi. Every winning Agg I have ever fired with a 6PPC was with a load velocity of around 3450 fps with a typical 65/68 grn bullet.

Many shooters will say......."Your sizing Dies are not correct". Really? I went 15 years with no insurmountable problems, then suddenly I can't get two firings before the primers have no feel at all, and the cases won't size.

I'm going to get some Norma Cases and start working with a lower load widow during the Winter. Personally, I think that might be the best option.

It gets tiring using up 50 cases in a Two Gun Event, considering the amount of effort is put into getting a 220 Russian case ready to go to the line.

By the way. Considering the ever growing popularity of the 30BR, why doesn't Lapua manufacture a "Factory" 30BR case? In our area, there are now more shooters building thirties than just about any thing else.
 
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jackie schmidt said:
Michael, what good does it do to have a PPC case from Lapua if it does not have the same alloy content as the 220 Russian of years past. (If indeed, something has changed).

I have always believed that much of the success of the 6PPC through the past decades was predicated on the Lapua 220's parent case to take the high pressures many shoot, the so called "upper load window" which by accounts exceeds 70,000 psi. Every winning Agg I have ever fired with a 6PPC was with a load velocity of around 3450 fps with a typical 65/68 grn bullet.

Many shooters will say......."Your sizing Dies are not correct". Really? I went 15 years with no insurmountable problems, then suddenly I can't get two firings before the primers have no feel at all, and the cases won't size.

I'm going to get some Norma Cases and start working with a lower load widow during the Winter. Personally, I think that might be the best option.

It gets tiring using up 50 cases in a Two Gun Event, considering the amount of effort is put into getting a 220 Russian case ready to go to the line.

By the way. Considering the ever growing popularity of the 30BR, why doesn't Lapua manufacture a "Factory" 30BR case? In our are, there are now more shooters building thirties than just about any thing else.
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Jackie,

They should also go back to the old alloy. If they didn't, you would still have a case that was equal or better than the Norma. Bottom line is we do need the alloy change because you should be able to shoot the loads that shoot the best. The shooters saying your sizing dies are not correct have little knowledge of how chamber dimensions work. Benchrest chambers run about .002" clearance in the web area. If they are tighter than that, a click on extraction can occur. If the actual case head was to expand .002", the primers would be loose. The case head must contain the pressure without the expansion that happens just ahead of it in the web area. I know that you know all of this Jackie, just surprised by what others have told you. I'm sure making 6PPC cases from 220 Russian does get very tiring. Sometimes it may feel like you spend more time preparing the brass than shooting it. I hear a lot of guys say they fireform, then fire once more before the case is ready for competition.

One thing you might consider. The case head will also work harden with each shot. If you run the lower node for an agg or two, then sometimes you can warm up a load and find the brass holds up better.

Your point on the 30BR brass is a good one. Yes they should make it. We all know how it is a pain to expand case necks. Knowing that they actually make 30BR brass somewhere on the way to it becoming a 6BR case is what makes me ask why they don't sell it. Since they start with a drawn cup, they make many neck sizes on the way to the 6mm. Same thing with the 220 Russian, it starts out bigger in the neck and body diameter on the way to making a 22 neck diameter, and increased body taper. The main thing they would have to make is a headstamp change.

The drawing operation is by far the biggest job. The sizing operation is simple, and the dies are easy to make. I think the headstamp is the biggest change. For this reason, as many people as possible should contact Lapua for them to also make 30BR brass.

Here is where to send cases to have them tested for free. Someone please send the old "brown or gold box" and the newer "blue box" 220 Russian brass. I would also ask him to check the hardness of the case head along with the alloy. Send anything else you are interested in testing. Make sure they are plainly marked.

Just to let all know, it appears that someone has stepped forward with brown box, and blue box 220 Russian for testing.

Jason T. Fridlund
1378 Patricia Avenue Unit #4
Simi Valley, CA, 93065
 
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Mike,

I think you will find the Norma cases are not as bad as you think they are. In 2016 I prepped 50 Norma PPC's for my UNL gun. During that season and 2017 those cases have fired two 100 yd 10 shot aggs, four 200 yd 10 shot aggs, 2 100 yd 5 shot aggs. and 2 200 yd 5 shot aggs. plus all the normal sighters. While the primer pockets are not as tight as the older Lapua cases provide, they certainly are not loose. I was firing 29.8 gr. of 133/08. By the way, you can get 31 grs. in the Norma cases, maybe more with a long drop tube.

Accuracy was excellent, as the cases fired two possible world records at the 2017 Sniper King in Tacoma. I haven't as yet gotten confirmation if the records made it or not.

As for the short headspace on the Norma brass, I simply neck turn short of the neck/shoulder junction and HS on that point. Yes I know it makes the "doughnut", but I use a long freebore and am never seated anywhere near the neck/shoullder junction.

FWIW
Steve Kostanich
 
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For the last few years my main load has been a Rl-10x load that chrono 3550 at 20 feet on a O-35. Pressure according to QUICKload is about 76,000. I've been able to bring primer pockets back some resizing with a Redding small base die after the usual f/l sizing.

This 2017 NBRSA Nats I've been using a case full of 8208 12020 or a case full of Imr 4895. So far both loading stimk!


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