Ideal wind flag responsiveness

K

KimZ

New member
I received a new set of wind flags. As an experiment, I set one of the new flags up next to my old flag I use at matches outside in some wind. Watching both flags respond to changing wind direction was interesting, and I was surprised that the new flag responded slower to changing wind direction.

The effect was consistent, and though the lag was only a fraction of a second it was noticeable.

The old flag has a larger vane than the new one, is lighter, and has ball bearings instead of a bushing. So the more rapid response of the old flag makes sense - more wind force, less friction, and less inertia.

I've also noticed this effect watching different shooter's flags at a match.

All other factors being equal, wouldn't faster response be better because of less lag in seeing the current wind condition? Or is there an advantage to a somewhat slower flag as it might show less transient wind effects and better indicate shootable conditions?


Kim
 
I don't think it matters much

as long as one knows what their flags are telling them. The important thing is knowing what the flags are telling you. This is learned by shooting over them. This is assuming all the flags are working properly. There are a lot of guys winning matches over old, heavy flags; see it often. I think something more important is visibility. Some of the newer flags I have seen painted in Neon colors are a lot more viable, to me at least.

Pete
 
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If you're just watching the flags in front of you, the faster the response the better. Watching the entire field is the best but you don't have any control whatsoever over that so it is a predicament. Learn to read whatever is out there and your scores will improve in time. It's a relative situation if you think about it for a moment.
 
Thank you.

Another experienced shooter also advised to watch flags in other lanes as well as your own. Makes sense: 6mph wind is about 9 ft / sec, so you should be able to see changes coming before they hit your lane.

I might try positioning the sensitive flag nearest the bench and others out further.

Kim
 
Very often, when the wind drops as far as you can see it affects your shot immediately.

Yes, put that flag near the bench!
 
I personally don't like those very fast acting very little flags that move like a windshield wiper...I like them to react fast but in a steady and solid manner...

There are some Top Shooters who sight in expecting certain condition to be present, then they raise their heads away from the scope/gun, keep their finger at the trigger and switch their concentration into watching their flags and as other members have said, to monitoring those flags to their sides in an effort to anticipate what is coming...When what they anticipated is present then they pull the trigger...These shooters usually pick 3-4 conditions and only shoot when these specific conditions are present.

To me this requires a certain degree of knowledge and discrimination of wind conditions for good anticipation, but then the "FollowThrough" of keeping that reticle in the target at the time of firing the gun is played in a very different manner as the shooter in not watching the target when he presses the trigger...He is watching the flags!!!

I don't have nor have yet developed this kind of expertise, but people who have shoot amazingly well...I am a few steps or leaps behind still using my peripheral vision for watching my flags while watching that "X" through the scope and worst, still re-learning the POI (Charts) difference in between Rimfire and Airgun shooting...These "Diabolo" shapde projectiles sure mess up what I learned shooting rimfire and centerfire bullets and regarding the POI derived from windy conditions.

Regards for all members,

AZ
 
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I could be wrong but I don't think those that shoot well even/ever consider that "POI" chart. They simply shoot a sighter and go with that bit of info.
 
"I don't think those that shoot well even/ever consider that "POI" chart"

Those guys have the chart in a chip plugged in to their brains...You are right Wilbur, I have never seen one of those big time winners using a chart but it is a fact that they seem to press the trigger with their brains and compensate for wind very well without thinking details...They shoot like a guitar player plays the guitar....With his brain!...by feeling and without thinking what keys and chords are coming next.

I have tried shooting a sighter and using that piece of info as you mention, but I have probably been 50-50% successful in what I think is the very same condition...I haven't been able to figure out why sometimes lateral winds (3-9) don't need vertical adjustments and why sometimes they do require quite a bit...The only thing I can come out with is probably a condition that my flags are not catching up like light thermals when the ground is heating around 11:00 AM, some upward currents of some kind that the flags don't mark, wind swirling out of the shooting tables/installations, etc...I am working on a probe in an effort for measuring these conditions that my flags don't mark.

During our last shot, we have a particular condition where winds coming from the west (9 o'çlock) needed NO VERTICAL adjustment, but then when we had the opposite winds coming from 3 o'clock an adjustment of about half an inch was required...While some argue that barrel rifling/twist has something to do with it (pellet spin), all I can say is that I partially agree with this concept buy keep in mind that pellets stabilize 90% by drag and 10% by spin so rifling is not all that important...There were guns with 1:16 and a 1:32 twist ratios and all of them required the very same compensation...So I wonder: how much does pellet spin has to do with it or what is going on?...But hey, I am speculating...what do I know!

Best regards,

AZ
 
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AZ...how long does it take between a sighter shot and a record shot...worst case and best case?
 
Best case is as fast as I can reload and fire, around 8 seconds....Worst about 20-25 seconds as soon as the sighter condition reappears...
 
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Any flag can only show what has already happened. The closer you can get to "real time", the better...with a stable, visible and readable flag. True, that in most cases, IF you're watching the flags all around you, the need for a more sensitive flag in front of your bench is less. But, as we've all done before, missing something coming across the range makes the flags in front of you being the fastest to respond, is very much important.

Without doing the math and going by memory, a 10mph wind is moving at about 14 fps and can stop or change directions almost instantly. If any part of the flag is slow to respond to a switch or letup, it can and is likely to show up on the target, in a way that is usually not what you want.

IMHO, there is no such thing as a flag that is too sensitive, but there are several that are poorly designed and/or balanced, often resulting in a flag that is twitchy and un-readable. There's nothing magic about balancing a flag 50/50 and seldom is that the ideal balance anyway. Slower, heavier flags benefit much more from balance issues than do very light ones. Still, other factors matter, though. For example, a daisy flag will benefit from being slightly tail heavy. Drag across the frontal area will create a situation where the flag will act as though it is too front heavy if the drag on the front gets to a point where it is greater than the pressure on the vane and tail area...creating a twitchy flag. You can either add more vane surface(and weight) or set the flag to be more tail heavy to counter this. Both of which are less than ideal, especially as the flag gets heavier and heavier. The center of pressure must be behind the pivot point...in any wind condition, for the flag to be stable. So, we either have more vane area, hence weight, especially sense that weight generally needs to be offset with yet more weight on the front, than necessary, or it needs to be tail heavy. The heavier the flag, the more being tail heavy affects friction at the pivot point. Some flags use bearings, some opposing magnets..etc, to help here but most of the friction is side load, not load at the point of the pole. Weight, smaller pin diameter and low friction Teflon pivot material are how I address this with my flags.--Mike
 
A long time back, I had a Beggs Wind Probe near a regular wind flag, of a type that was in common use at the time, and which responded on a par with other flag designs. If I remember correctly they were at about 35 yards. The indicator showed a pulse that took it to the ground for a split second, and then it came back to close to center. The flag never showed a thing. My point is that we tend to assume that flags show us what is out there, when in fact, for various reasons they may not.
 
Boyd Allen said:
A long time back, I had a Beggs Wind Probe near a regular wind flag, of a type that was in common use at the time, and which responded on a par with other flag designs. If I remember correctly they were at about 35 yards. The indicator showed a pulse that took it to the ground for a split second, and then it came back to close to center. The flag never showed a thing. My point is that we tend to assume that flags show us what is out there, when in fact, for various reasons they may not.
Click to expand...

...and they can only show what's happening in THAT spot, too. Most of us have seen tails point straight up into the air, like they were being pulled there with a fishing line...hard. The probes won't tell me that, either. There's no viable and perfect solution. The Upsy-Downsy type flags will show that type of condition but where is the limit to what can be bought and carried? There are also flags that incorporate several of the flag/probe/up-down features into one. Again, weight, practicality, function, readability, cost, transport...etc., all become factors and/or problems at some point. Personally, I like my flags and a Beggs probe or two. That combination seems to give me plenty of information to still miss well.. LOL!
 
It might be interesting to devise some sort of long burning, inexpensive smoke pot so that several could be put out, going down range on a relatively calm day wind currents could be observed. Has anyone heard of such a thing?
 
Ideal wind flag responsiveness...

Any flag design that has the pivot point close to the middle of the flag is, in my experience, a flag that will be unsettled and hard to read. Simply put, with this type of flag design, the wind is working on the front of the flag nearly as much as the back, especially if said flag has a spinner on the front. Spinners catch a lot of air, compounding the whole situation. Often these are the flags that guys feel they have to run in an unbalanced towards the tail condition and/or use a bigger tail to create drag and help smooth out the movement. Ideally, the flags design should be such that it gives the wind a lot of leverage on the tail end of the flag and much less on the front. This type of design is what the most sucessful flag designs used in BR in the last 20 years have in common, and it creates a flag that will “snap to”, without twitchiness, and give you a good read.
 
Boyd Allen said:
It might be interesting to devise some sort of long burning, inexpensive smoke pot so that several could be put out, going down range on a relatively calm day wind currents could be observed. Has anyone heard of such a thing?
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Yes Boyd, I've heard them referred to as smudge pots and have played with them. Bart's buddy Jim, had some out when I was down there. No doubt, they're sensitive. Readability is the problem with them. It's hard to distinguish if the wind is coming or going, much less small angle changes.
 
I understand that they would not be suitable for a primary reference. On the other hand, they might be a suitable learning tool in the pursuit a better understanding of range wind, and the effects of bullets on air currents. Sounds like someone had the same idea. Thanks for the info.
Boyd
 
Boyd Allen said:
I understand that they would not be suitable for a primary reference. On the other hand, they might be a suitable learning tool in the pursuit a better understanding of range wind, and the effects of bullets on air currents. Sounds like someone had the same idea. Thanks for the info.
Boyd
Click to expand...

I've got a youtube video of one of my flags with a 5 minute plumbers smoke bomb. They work pretty well too. Conditions that day were atrocious! Wind was whipping back and forth, as well as there being a moment in the video when a current came along and it was like a hammer driving the smoke cloud straight to the ground. Pretty cool to see..especially live and in person. Video doesn't do it justice. For one thing, something about frame rates or bauld rate..or something like that...but at times, a spinning daisy appears very slow or to even stop, in the video, when I assure you..it was spinning hard. The video is pretty bad, but here it is. Keep in mind, the wind was swirling and whipping like crazy. It was what I'd call pretty much unshootable conditions, but at times, just how bad it was didn't show up very well in the video. It's still worth watching, but trust me...the flag is very stable and is only doing what the wind is doing. Watch the smoke and the tail! This was an EXTREME test. Unfortunately, you just had to be there to fully appreciate it.

I wish that I had used some other flags along side of mine when I made the movie. It's hard to replicate those conditions. I had been saving those smoke bombs for a good day to really push the flags. This was maybe the best day I've seen since, to do just that.


 
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