IBS Benchrest Surveys (LONG)

J

Jeff Stover

Member
The IBS Executive Board has authorized two surveys. The first is for current, or former, benchrest competitors and the second is for NON-benchrest shooters. Both can be found on the following web links.

For benchrest shooters:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/7WXV5SP
For NON-benchrest shooters:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/W2W5CMD
Feel free to distribute these links to others.

The primary purpose for the surveys is determine how we can grow benchrest shooting. We realize there are a lot of shooters that were once into the sport but have drifted away. Why? Have they found something else, or are we doing something wrong?

The second group we want to reach are serious shooters that do not consider themselves to be benchresters. How do they view us? Are they interested in learning more? How can we help?

By design, the surveys contains some quite provocative and controversial questions. Some questions seek opinions on caliber neutral scoring in Score and whether the two benchrest organizations should be combined. We even tackle the age-old questions about competitions for factory rifles and whether there should be shooter classificatons.

Results of the survey will be presented-and discussed-at the IBS Annual Meeting on January 15, 2010 in Harrisburg, PA. As we did last year, details of the meeting, and the survey results, will be on our web site within 48 hours.

I have been thinking a lot about benchrest in comparison to the other shooting disciplines. In doing so, it is nearly impossible to avoid buzz words, such as "elite", "ultimate" and "cutting edge". Simply put, benchrest shooting CAN be described as such, because that is what we do. If that turns off some, so be it. The rifles that sit on the rests aimed at IBS or NBRSA targets from 100 to 1000 yards ARE the most accurate on the planet. Note I did not say "some of the most accurate".

Probably the most challenging part of our game is there is NO room for error. A group or aggregate that measures, say .270" is a far cry from a .170". Point out a .10" tick mark on a ruler to the average Joe and tell him that is the distance that represents the difference between great and average. I think the very nature of our discipline appeals to a particular type of individual. We are trying to place each shot in the same hole or on top of a small 'x'. It is hard to dabble in benchrest. It is a bit of an "all or nothing" game. And yes, you are pissing in the wind if you do not have the best equipment.

A decent comparison is to some dirt bike events I did a hundred years ago. I could look reasonably proficient in Hare Scrambles and motor along over small jumps. BUT in Observed Trials a screw up was quite spectacular. You needed to be much more proficient in Trials not to look like a Rube.

Selling our sport can be a little difficult. Some of the uninitated think it is either too complex or too easy (see the comments on this benchrest video on Youtube if you want to lose your lunch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkTsUKoaDlU ).

I don't mind that we are a "niche" sport, but we need to be a critical mass to make sure the normal weekend shoots have healthy numbers. Interestingly, most of the really large shoots, such as both Nationals and the Super Shoot have held their own in recent years. So, maybe the economy does play into the number of shoots that a person attends. There is a question to that effect in the survey.

Recently, I had a call from a fellow that is building a sophisticated range here in the east. He was not a benchrest shooter, but wanted information on what we needed so that he can host registered matches. He directly told me that benchrest was important because that is where all the accuracy improvements were coming from and he felt his range needed to cater to our discipline. Enough said.

The survey takes only a few minutes to fill out. Brick bats and other comments can be directed to me at jstover33@comcast.net or 570-660-6102.

Please pass on the survey link for non-benchrest shooters to those shooters that have not "seen the light".

Jeff Stover
IBS President
 
Jeff,

I just took the survey, My thoughts are that this may help IBS with it's future plans. I can only hope everyone that takes the survey does so with thier honest opinion. Will the results of this survey be available to the members at the Annual Meeting next month? We will get a good idea of what BR is about from the shooters that are active. With any luck we will get non competitors to give their honest veiws and maybe even some non shooters will get out this year and attend a few matches or a school, and help strengthen BR as the top precision/accuracy shooting sport.

Thank You for your efforts and being proactive in the needs of the IBS and Benchrest as a whole.

Paul
 
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thanks Jeff...

Jeff, I applaud your efforts in putting this together. Nothing happens in any sport without the efforts of people like you. Thank you..... Scott
 
Woody - In three hours we have had 85 responses so far (pretty good, I think; there have been 26 on the non-br shooter survey). One thing that has emerged as a blazing torch in virtually all responses is that benchrest shooters from Colorado should be banned...:). Any idea why?

Actually, many of the comments and text responses are quite good. More come. Thanks for your post.

jks
 
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Banning Coloradans?

Jeff Stover said:
Woody - In three hours we have had 85 responses so far (pretty good, I think; there have been 26 on the non-br shooter survey). One thing that has emerged as a blazing torch in virtually all responses is that benchrest shooters from Colorado should be banned...:). Any idea why?

Actually, many of the comments and text responses are quite good. More come. Thanks for your post.

jks
Click to expand...

I dunno Jeff, old buddy. Probably because we bathe in small quantities of natural pine cone soap, have granola breath, and only breathe once every half hour in lower elevations. I think it makes some shooters nervous. Go figure.
 
Bathe--tonight is your night you LRB.
Woody said:
I dunno Jeff, old buddy. Probably because we bathe in small quantities of natural pine cone soap, have granola breath, and only breathe once every half hour in lower elevations. I think it makes some shooters nervous. Go figure.
Click to expand...
 
There as no room on the survey -- or perhaps I misunderstood -- for two thoughts I had.

The first is "Have you cut back on you benchrest shooting, and if so, why?" To which I would answer yes, and that the cost of going to matches, esp. gasoline and hotels, is one large factor.

The second is that "most accurate rifles, period" stuff. We're stuck with stock rules, barrel taper rules, etc., that preclude developing the "most accurate, bar nothing, rifles." Think about it. All the ink and pixels about "tuning" a rifle. Now, what if the center of mass for the rifle was along the center of the bore? What would that do to questions about/issues with barrel harmonics? Suddenly gone, aren't they? But no, stock rules prohibit any serious attempt to explore this, except with 600 and 1K benchrest.

I use to harp on those 1960 era rules, but quit. I can live with the rules. Pats on the back while those rules are in force are a bit different, though.
 
Survey

I never set off a centerfire primer in the last 12 months. Benchrest just got to be more work and less pleasure and that turned me to other persuits. I will admit that I did not practice enough, and that is probably my best reason for poor performance.
Plenty of matches are won with the old reliable Leupold 36 scope, but the March scope at $2500 seems to be the way to go. The high dollar 'smiths seem to get the most wins.
The high cost of a rifle or 2 or 3, and trying to spend the $ to get the best support equipment leaves a large population of accuracy freaks out in the cold.
I shot benchrest for 10 years, and made bullets for much of that time, but I really think building the sport has to go back to the roots of the sport....................and that would require some sort of "factory class". Ask any accuracy minded shooter at your local range if he is willing to spend $4K to be properly set up to shoot a registered event and he'll likely tell you to go suck an egg!
If we can get the thousands of varmint hunters out there to "show their stuff" with their prairie dog rigs, at least those that are willing to spend a few bucks to optimize their equipment will eventually (quickly) fall victim to the group shooting addiction and join the ranks. It would also be benificial if the NRA in it's infinate wisdom? would recognize the fact that Benchrest in all of it's forms is a form of the shooting sports that is worth promoting! Hell, you have to be an NRA member to participate at most events anyway.
Bottom line? Make it affordable to compete at an entry level!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Various ranges have factory classes, but they have set their own rules on what modifications are allowed. Set them in stone. Not a big deal, but have some parity here.
What separates the true BR shooter and a wannabe is DOLLARS. Plain and simple.
Nix the sporter class and add a regulated factory class.
BA
 
JJ-IA said:
You can do all those things and more in unlimited.
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Ya ta da ta dah. Been hearing this for 20 year now. But:

(1) What we tell everyone is "buy a sporter. That's THE benchrest rifle, you can use it everywhere."

(2) There are a number of matches where unlimited isn't shot, some group, and all score.

It's one thing to say "we like it the way it is"; another entirely to stick your head in the sand and say "it's covered."
 
Update - in 24 hours we have already 257 responses to the survey for benchrest shooters, and 240 on the companion survey for those not shooting benchrest. Thanks to all. If you have not taken the short survey(s) please do so. The link is at the top of the thread.

On thing I can tell you is that well over 90% of the respondents thinks we should grow our sport. More to come.

jks
 
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bryan said:
Ask any accuracy minded shooter at your local range if he is willing to spend $4K to be properly set up to shoot a registered event and he'll likely tell you to go suck an egg! If we can get the thousands of varmint hunters out there to "show their stuff" with their prairie dog rigs, at least those that are willing to spend a few bucks to optimize their equipment will eventually (quickly) fall victim to the group shooting addiction and join the ranks.
Click to expand...

BA,
This is exactly what got me into benchrest shooting. I went to a club shoot with my PD gun, and had a blast. It was not long till I was in the market to buy my first legal bench gun. I do agree that the cost of travel is the main reason I do not shoot as much as I could. Not much the matches can do about that.
 
I look at it like this. I live in Houston and can go shoot IDPA / USPSA at several clubs that have matches during the week and also on the weekend. You can get into both of these sports with minimal cash outlay and be competitive because they have a production class and the also have a shooter classification system. Action pistol combined with 3 gun is where the money is at now in the shooting sports. I don't know what it is but they are doing something that appeals to the public and allows everyone to participate at some level and they keep coming back for more. Although they are two totally separate disciplines, benchrest sanctioning bodies can learn something from what those other organizations are doing.

And this is a personal pet peeve and probably doesn't apply to 99% of the people here. But I have don't have weekends off. Anytime I want to shoot, I have to take time off and luckily mine is paid time off. That may not be the situation for everyone.
 
We have to get the younger generation shooting. How about getting sponsors to donate product or cash to purchase or build new and used guns, and make sure every major shoot has a few donor rifles, ammo and let children under 18 shoot free, as well as let an adult try a match or two. If we get a child hooked we will probably get a mom or dad as well.
I have been to small matches that always had awards for my children, I have been to large matches that let me pay for them but ignored the fact they were there. In fact they dont even count officialy in the IBS! They are members I have to pay for them but no class for them. My kids would shoot more if they had like competition, and could see there standings on the IBS website. The shooting sports and rules are geared more for the pros and not entry level friendly. The People (shooters) themselves are extremly friendly and most willing to help out the new person. I shot an encore for 3 years and several times I was protested about shooting the match, luckly I had other shooters come to the rescue and say they had shot with me and I was fine. I now have two bolt guns but three of us shooting, so one of us still shoots a break open, unless there is two relays. I always call ahead before I go to a match so we are not dissapointed.
Kim, Mark (age 12) and Daniel (age 10), Monthony
 
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" andre3k and " fixinit" are on the right track.

I have run into this same issue when shooting competative Archery before Archery was cool. 25 + years ago. Our local clubs focus became geared toward the young shooters, presenting larger trophies than the Compound bow classes. We had ribbons or certificates for every young shooter at all matches no matter what. We did give them the spot light. Luckily we attracted the mothers and sisters helping with the additional cost of awards. Its a trade off when trying new things, more awards for more classes get very pricey in a hurry.
We have a list of free advertising on every match report for all top equipment and Gunsmithing. Maybe we need to get our sport further out in the eyes of all shooters. Other publications would be very interrested in what factory rifles are taking home the wood every weekend. There are several paths we could take, all of which will cost something. Are we willing to pay now or loose the sport and pay later ? The results of the survey should help guide and focus on a starting path atleast. Jeff and others .. it will be a monumental task Im afraid .. you've got a great start.

Andy B
 
Jeff

I took this survey and I am in agreement that something has to be done about the sport because I have seen a lot of shooters leave or move on from the sport due to either money or not being able to compete for SSOY due to the travel that one needs to do to give it a run, This is from experience, as I have gone the run and It cost a great deal and time from the family. Most of the big shoots are up north which give those folks an advantage, So what if we had regional championships? A south-east SSOY along with a mid-west and north-east and north-west. This would give a lot more shooters incentive to compete. Then at the end of the year the top five or ten from each area meet at a central or chosen range, a neturat range for the big shoot-off
with all the venders to whom make large amounts of money from us donate prizes to make it all worth the year long dedecation that we as shooters give, At this shoot the IBS SSOY OR GROUP trophys are given. This way we can have more shoots in our areas and still be in the game. Think about it.
 
I answered "no" on the survey about growing the sport because usually when someone talks about growing a sport they mean reducing the standards and letting people have more opportunity to win. I shoot at a small club but if anyone wants to win a match here he has to beat the best shooters in the sport. Who would want it any different? Current IBS competition is the epitome of the sport and I want it to stay that way.

I think the classes need to be restructered, the rules need clarifying and we need some type of standardization of what is checked on equipment at matches to maintain a level playing field. At some matches, nothing is checked. I've never seen a rest checked. At an auto race cars have to go through tech inspection before the event, why not in benchrest?

I've been a believer in a Factory Class (box stock) for many years and still am. Yes, I think Savages are factory rifles. Sako's, too, though a case might be made for Cooper's being ultra-factory/semi-custom.

I wish the IBS Board well with making some meaningful improvements.
 
I answered NO to growing the sport as well. It takes a certain type of individual to be willing to committ to what is necessary to win in Benchrest. Dumbing that down won't accomplish anything. It's bad enough we have dumbed down our educational system in this country.
 
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