How to shoot the dead calms

[goodgrouper]

Sooner or later, if you shoot enough br, you're going to get one of those dead calm, eerily still mornings when the dust hangs, the traveler spider webs drape across your field of view, and you can hear a pin drop 100 yards away. Your gun is in perfect tune, your paying dead serious attention to the lifeless flags, and you have been "in the zone" during practice with your groups showing bughole after bughole. Yet, when you start your group on the record target, it's anything but tight. It seems you can't get bullets to go anywhere near where they should. It's hard to even get two bullets to touch on the sighter let alone the record.

Then suddenly, a little breeze picks up. The flags come to life and the tails start to flutter. You quickly shoot a few sighters to see where the impact is. The two shots touch and you adjust up to the record and rip off 5 shots as fast as you can in the new condition and they drill into one hole.

What happened? What's your theories? How would you approach this? How would you shoot through this (if you can) if the wind hadn't picked up? Just curious.

P.S. Oh yeah, the match was started really early so there wasn't much mirage if any to look at.

 

[Boyd Allen]

Flag sensitivity is an issue. My friends Del Bishop and Steve Kostanich have auxiliary flags that are much more sensitive than any others that I have seen. They have oversized propellers that have blades that are covered with some sort of gauzy light fabric, they will start turning when nothing else is moving. Their tails are super light as well. In the conditions that you describe, it is like everyone else has posts stuck in the ground, and they have flags that are reacting. If a range only has conventional flags in those conditions, effectively they have no flags, until things pick up. Del tells me that some very good shooters from areas where the lightest local conditions are heavier than theirs, may have trouble in the still that can happen where they shoot.

 

[Wilbur]

Dead calm

Some get lucky..some don't. In a lifetime, you'll get lucky about one out of three. Shoot sooner, or shoot later, but don't shoot while the bulk of the line is shooting....and shoot fast. This is no time for knob twiddling. That won't help but gives you a plan.

 

[Big Al]

Sooner or later, if you shoot enough br, you're going to get one of those dead calm, eerily still mornings when the dust hangs, the traveler spider webs drape across your field of view, and you can hear a pin drop 100 yards away. Your gun is in perfect tune, your paying dead serious attention to the lifeless flags, and you have been "in the zone" during practice with your groups showing bughole after bughole. Yet, when you start your group on the record target, it's anything but tight. It seems you can't get bullets to go anywhere near where they should. It's hard to even get two bullets to touch on the sighter let alone the record.

Then suddenly, a little breeze picks up. The flags come to life and the tails start to flutter. You quickly shoot a few sighters to see where the impact is. The two shots touch and you adjust up to the record and rip off 5 shots as fast as you can in the new condition and they drill into one hole.

What happened? What's your theories? How would you approach this? How would you shoot through this (if you can) if the wind hadn't picked up? Just curious.

P.S. Oh yeah, the match was started really early so there wasn't much mirage if any to look at.

The mirage just like the poor, are always with us!

It's just like seeing the stars at night twinkle, the colder the night the more the twinkle. I've seen the mirage at -30 degrees F. As long as the sun is out, it's easier to see. It's all about mirage. Many shooters are afraid of shooting in a calm just for this same reason. One way to lick the problem is with a spotting scope focused on the mirage in front of the target. Try it. It might work for you.

 

[goodgrouper]

Flag sensitivity is an issue. My friends Del Bishop and Steve Kostanich have auxiliary flags that are much more sensitive than any others that I have seen. They have oversized propellers that have blades that are covered with some sort of gauzy light fabric, they will start turning when nothing else is moving. Their tails are super light as well. In the conditions that you describe, it is like everyone else has posts stuck in the ground, and they have flags that are reacting. If a range only has conventional flags in those conditions, effectively they have no flags, until things pick up. Del tells me that some very good shooters from areas where the lightest local conditions are heavier than theirs, may have trouble in the still that can happen where they shoot.

That makes sense. I have several sets of tails myself for light, moderate, and hurrican gussy conditions. But in my above scenario, lets say there were quite a few sets of flags out that had the surveyor ribbon on them (the stuff that seems to be quite popular) and they weren't even wiggling on the ends either. You know that if that tape isn't moving, it shouldn't give you several bullet diameters of condition at 200 yards and a bullet and a half at 100. What caused it? There surely could have been a little .02 mph puff that didn't wiggle the surveyor tape, but it wouldn't push the bullet off that far?

 

[goodgrouper]

The mirage just like the poor, are always with us!

It's just like seeing the stars at night twinkle, the colder the night the more the twinkle. I've seen the mirage at -30 degrees F. As long as the sun is out, it's easier to see. It's all about mirage. Many shooters are afraid of shooting in a calm just for this same reason. One way to lick the problem is with a spotting scope focused on the mirage in front of the target. Try it. It might work for you.

I'm sure there were differing air densities but because of the early morning setting and the angle of the sun, you couldn't see much or any mirage in the scope. Does the answer lie in the air densities why the bullets are veering way off course? Ooops, I may have just given away my theory........

 

[HovisKM]

Well, there can be a lot of answers to this question. But here is my take. Last weekend in Alabama at Mickey's range, we had this senerio pop up on Sunday morning. Calm....I mean dead calm. I hate calm. I waited and waited and nothing but calm. Well, I finally shot with about two minutes left and shot a .418 at 200 yds. Both relays had the same condition and my target and anothers (at the exact same measurement) were the second smallest during the match, which is common but not the kinda of group I would consider good, especially against a lot of the competition that was there.

Here is my take on it. One, especially in the morning calm, there are heat bursts that come off the ground and travel straight up, causing mirage (that you can't really see) and massive varying circles of air burst. If you have every seen thermal images of ground heating, the heat rises in a vortex type pattern varying in diameter, most in the 3 -4 foot range. These things do stuff that is virtually inconceivable. Secondly, a load that shoots good in the wind will not neccessarily shoot in the calm. This was a lesson taught to me a few years back that has become invaulable. Tuning in the wind is an art form in itself. It kinda goes against the norm because wind flags aren't that important and that is what makes it hard. The top shooters on this board knows exactly what I'm talking about. But in simple terms...you look for a load that shoots best in varying conditions without holding off....the best of these loads will be more forgiving when you miss the little pickups or letoffs.

JMHO
Hovis

 

[crb]

What Boyd said. I made flags that will show everything. My props will be showing a breeze that even the little electronic windspeed gauges won't give a reading on. If the wind speed changes some minute amount the props instantly show the change.

I have watched my flags show a lazy full reverse and other flags on the range aren't showing anything. The worst seems to be when my flags are hunting to the right and left of 12 or 6 o'clock. I always wait until the condition is on one side or the other for a few seconds before shooting.

 

[Boyd Allen]

One reason flags don't turn is that their pivot shafts aren't truly vertical. I believe that Jackie addresses this by using cheap camera tripods as stands, and adjusting the pivots using the tripod heads.

 

[crb]

I just weighed a couple of my flags. I only have 4 currently and they graduate in size from the smallest #1 to the largest #4.

#3 has a balsa vane. Without the pivot bearing assy but with the prop assy it weighs 1.9 oz. I balance it about 1" behind the pivot brg. Numbers 1 and 2 will be a few tenths of an oz lighter. With these flags having them semi vertical is good enough.

#4 has a coroplast tail and WITH the pivot bearing assy it weighs 3.9 oz. The pivot on this one probably weighs about 1/2 oz. I consider it to be the poorest flag of mine due to the excessive weight and poor response compared to the other 3. I will eventually replace the vane with balsa wood. This flag's stand needs to be pretty much vertical or it will 'gravity vane' [ as in weather vane ].

 

[HovisKM]

I'll stand by what I said because these very small changes your talking about will not make a high two out of a mid one. Just won't happen, even with a full reverse or a .6xx out of a .2xx at 200yds. One thing I've learned the last couple of years after buying and building all types of flags. Too sensitive of a flag is bad and causes mental stress at the line because of trying to shoot in to exact of conditions and will cause people to not let a shot go when they should be because it won't make any difference at the target to speak of. Jackies flags are a real good comprimise between showing the condition and not being to sensitive. I wanted to take a closer look at them but just didn't think about it when I had the time.

Hovis

 

[Gene Beggs]

This calm condition/big group scenario has puzzled shooters for many years and it was only after I began shooting in the tunnel that I finally realized what I believe causes the problem. Wake turbulence!

My approach to anything is always influenced by a lifelong love of flying. You would be amazed at how much flying and shooting have in common.

Picture this. You arrive at the airport early in the morning and there is not a leaf moving. You climb into your little single engine airplane and taxi out for departure. The tower clears you for takeoff and adds, "Caution wake turbulence; departed DC-9 two minutes ago. You pour the coal to all 100 horses and begin your takeoff roll.

After lift off, everything is going great and the air is perfectly smooth when suddenly the little airplane pitches and rolls violently as if it flew into a storm. And that's exactly what has happened; it flew into the wake of the departed DC-9. Had there been a little crosswind, the wake would have been drifted downwind and out of the departure path. Do you suppose the same thing happens to our bullets when we shoot in a dead calm?

If there is no movement of the air mass, the wake of preceeding bullets remains in the flight path creating a rough ride for those that follow.

Later,

Gene Beggs

 

[HovisKM]

Gene,
Your right about that...wake are there...but even when you wait for a long time after everyone else is done or if your by yourself...big groups still happen and the vortex I was referring to is just like when you fly that cessna a thousand feet over the coal stacks at a power plant. What I have seen most is the vertical in the groups when calm and you wait. If there all over the place then, wake and heat rising is working together. I used to love when it was cloudy and take unsuppecting passengers over the stacks. They won't fall asleep after that.

Hovis

 

[Vibe]

Wake turbulence!

Gene
This and wind shear are the reasons that the aviation industry started looking at onboard LIDAR for real time detection. Which is where I got the idea for a shooting related LIDAR wind detector device that would be useful for not only benchrest but one man scout sniper missions. I'd heard a rumor not long ago that such a system might actually now be under development for military use.

It works by measuring the frequency shift of light backscattered from a laser, and the difference in that shift when measured from 3 different angles - 3 angles ends up equaling velocity and direction in 3 dimensions. And unlike discrete wind flags - such a system could tell you the air movement profile for the entire air mass in the bullets flight path. Sort of like having a flag for each yard of the range. And one that would also tell you what the mirage "deflection" actually was as well.

I sent "feeler" e-mails to several LIDAR manufactures with this idea back in '99. But it's only now seeming to gain interest.

 

[Big Al]

I'm sure there were differing air densities but because of the early morning setting and the angle of the sun, you couldn't see much or any mirage in the scope. Does the answer lie in the air densities why the bullets are veering way off course? Ooops, I may have just given away my theory........

Shooting in the mirage. All of us know that mirage is and indicator of wind direction and speed. That's is just about a given. Time spent at the range with a mirage board and a scope to spot with, teaches us a lot about what the mirage can do in cold temps. When you see the boil at cold temps it's a pretty good clue that the problem is mirage. One winter I set up my spotting scope in the living room facing out the front window, the view went unobstructed for miles. I watched and studied till into the summer. It taught me that the sun even overcast, where not much visible light is evident The mirage is still there it's just harder to see. The earth is warm in relation to the sky, Heat travels to cold (second law of thermal dynamics). As long as you have the light to see the heat waves rising or being played with by the wind, you know that there is always going to have image distortion. and the bullets path is going to be disturbed. I have seen this through many different pressure changes and humidity changes. Using a sling psychrometer and wet bulb temperature readings the distortion is always there, no matter what my reading were. When you shoot in a boil, you know it's not going to make a group. You also know that seeing the mirage is a faster indicator than any wind flag, how does a wind flag show a boil?

I feel that a mirage board set up is worth while to learn from, along with a scope set to look for the mirage.

Just my two cents.

 

[HovisKM]

Vibe...very smart I must say. Now you know what the laser system on the M1 Abrams does besides range distance. The information from the laser feeds, enemy speed, enemy direction, enemy distance, wind velocity and direction to the fire control computer which also inputs data from the on board GPS and corelates with other systems for the M1's own speed, direction and altitude. It doesn't have to have all the information to come up with a firing solution but the more info...the better the accuracy. These systems have been in place a long time.

Hovis

 

[Vibe]

Hovis
"Hard" targets were the first to use Laser range finding and speed measurements. The measurement of fine particles, aerosols, and even just air came a bit later. But even that has been possible and almost routine for a while. But it's only just now getting to the point where it could be useful for this level of shooting with "hand held" firearms.

I had even envisioned a HUD inside the scope to show the dynamic POA (projected POI) in as close to real time as could be accomplished. (Some calculation lag is inevitable - even with fast dedicated computing engines.)

 

[HovisKM]

Vibe..

Vibe...you are so right. The Navy has a program right now that is similiar to what your talking about when it comes to a HUD. Seen a prototype. The small computer is carried on the individual and hard wired to the weapon. Two forms of HUD's were being looked at. One, mounted around the bell of the scope and showed the projection onto the front lens. The second, was a HUD that showed on an eyepiece mounted to the helmet and flipped down infront of the eye. These originally (actually still are, navy's helping now) are Army projects for the future warrior. They were first being tested in the late 80's and ran around 40000 then. Biggest problem then was the keeping the computer cool and durability....now the biggest is money. Supposedly, some special ops units are testing them in combat but I can't comfirm that. The system was design for the M4 5.56ammo and the 40mm 203 grenade launcher. The system will also prioritize threats and all info is feed back to a cmdr's system. Anyone who is encrypted the same can also view what another is seeing or send his info to another. Orders in txt can also be sent and displayed on the HUD.

I'm no engineer but am working on a laser assisted engagement system that also uses a camera. Particle deflection and lens particle contamination is a big issue in the enviroment that it is designed to operate in.

Hovis

 

[goodgrouper]

Goodgrouper
The dead calm scenario you presented comes up once in awhile during an agg. To handle this situation your set-up has to be solid. Lost shots are caused by bad bench technique. At the bench your rear bag and rest should be lined up with the target. To check this your record to sighter movement should be on a vertical line. If it's not move your rest until it does. You want to be able to evaluate your sighter shots if you need to, a vertical alignment of your up and movement is needed to do this.
A percieved no condition Match requires the shooter to look far down range to see if any flags are active. Allot of shooters rely on their front flag or two to shoot from shot to shot. This works allot but what goes on at your number 3,4,5 flag can save you group especially if your first couple flags have no movement. Also gun-handling in a dead calm condition is paramount. Don't be shooting so fast that your POA becomes sloppy. For every .1 group you shoot you could have blown the group with a bad hold or bad trigger pull. With bad gun handling your .1 now is a .4 because of your bad gun-handling.

Practice is where you want to work on technique. Be concious of your trigger. Be able to control the last shot. Practice rest and rear bag set-up every time you practice. Most shooters wait too long to shoot their last shot waiting for a condition that even if it looks like it returned it probably is not what you think it is. Don't be afraid to go back to your sighter and work a couple shots to be confident you are making the right hold for the last shot.
The dead calm condition for me is one that I will wait a couple minutes to begin my group. I prefer to shoot when I can see conditions. But if it happens that most of the Match is a dead calm I will shoot 3 or 4 sighter shots before I start and let each shot on the record target be a sighter shot for the next record shot. With good gun handling and looking at down-range flags you should be able to get through the dead calm condition, maybe.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

Good points as always Stephen. But I don't think that bad bench technique was the cause in this particular situation because as soon as the wind picked up, the groups shrank immediately. It had to be condition induced.

 

[goodgrouper]

Well, there can be a lot of answers to this question. But here is my take. Last weekend in Alabama at Mickey's range, we had this senerio pop up on Sunday morning. Calm....I mean dead calm. I hate calm. I waited and waited and nothing but calm. Well, I finally shot with about two minutes left and shot a .418 at 200 yds. Both relays had the same condition and my target and anothers (at the exact same measurement) were the second smallest during the match, which is common but not the kinda of group I would consider good, especially against a lot of the competition that was there.

Here is my take on it. One, especially in the morning calm, there are heat bursts that come off the ground and travel straight up, causing mirage (that you can't really see) and massive varying circles of air burst. If you have every seen thermal images of ground heating, the heat rises in a vortex type pattern varying in diameter, most in the 3 -4 foot range. These things do stuff that is virtually inconceivable. Secondly, a load that shoots good in the wind will not neccessarily shoot in the calm. This was a lesson taught to me a few years back that has become invaulable. Tuning in the wind is an art form in itself. It kinda goes against the norm because wind flags aren't that important and that is what makes it hard. The top shooters on this board knows exactly what I'm talking about. But in simple terms...you look for a load that shoots best in varying conditions without holding off....the best of these loads will be more forgiving when you miss the little pickups or letoffs.

JMHO
Hovis

That is exactly what I think was going on Hovis. Thanks.