How I make the 30-30 Agg.

German,

I was under the impression, perhaps wrong, that there can be a difference between "flame size" and brisance; and that it is "brisance" we are really concerned with in primers.

That said, one of the chamberings I shoot is a 6mm based on the 6.5x54 MS case, which uses a large primer. Based only on group size, the traditional "mild" primers -- Fed 210, CCI-BR, RWS, etc. did not shoot as well as old Remington 9-1/2 "Kleenbore" primers. Fed 215 magnum primers were better than 210s, but not as good as 9-1/2. Maybe a standard CCI would rival the 9-1/2's; I didn't have any to test.

This is a longer, skinner case than usual for a small, 6mm long-range cartridge -- basically a 2-inch PPC. It is also the first time I've found primer choice to matter so much. I wonder if others shooting small (for long range) 6mms have found similar grouping results. It has not held true for the other long, skinny case I've used -- the 6.5/270 improved, or the larger 6mm, the 6mm Ackley, which could be called long & skinny -- at least long compared to the .243, or 6/6.5x47.

FWIW
 
Charles, brisance is a measure of shattering energy, something we really don't want in a primer as shattered powder grains would have a significantly faster burn rate. The term is often used however, in the context of primers to mean "energy" in a roundabout way. While I'll avoid the term, let's talk about primers and energy.

What I measure (or try to) is pressure, velocity and flame size as well as ES and SD of velocity and of pressure along with a couple of other items such as rise time and area under the pressure curve. Generally speaking, there is a good corelation between flame size, pressure and velocity; they all tend to go up together. There is also a pretty decent corelation between those three factors and increasing SD of pressure and velocity, especially in smaller (6BR) cases. In the 30-06 I see a bit less of that, a good indication that it "likes" a stronger primer.

Some primers have changed quite a bit over the years, Remington is definitely in that group. For the latest PS article (which might be in the Sept. issue, I don't know) I tested 12 large primers including some old ones (all with known dates). Based on flame size, I would rate the Russian and the CCI BR2 as "small"; the Federal 210 and 210M and the Winchester as "medium" and the RWS, Remington 9 1/2 and Federal 215 as "large". However, the RWS still gave low pressures and low SD in the 30-06 and produces excellent accuracy. This same lot of RWS doesn't do that well in .308 loads, so there's the case capacity issue raising its head.

I'm assuming you're using a fairly slow powder like 4350 or 4831 in that 6mm wildcat, maybe that's why it likes a big flame primer, but I can't say for sure. I use 4350 in the 30-06 but faster powders like RL15, Varget and H4895 in the .308 and 6BR - is it the powder or the case capacity that makes the milder primers shine there? Are those factors even separable? I can't answer that with the data I have.

Of course, primers vary by lots and over time as well, so you may be seeing some lot-specific results (don't we all). I'd be interested in seeing how Russians would do in it, they do very well in the 6XC which is smaller enough that it may well not like the same primers as yours.
 
German

I would love to get more information from you and test some primers. I could be way off base by using the Fed. 210's. I came on here to discuss how I make the 30-30 shoot, but I may actually be here to learn how to make it shoot better. I once looked into possibly using some RWS primers because I had seen some information on their use in match shooting because they were a weaker and more consistant primer. Does anybody have any idea what Lapua uses in their factory loaded match ammo?

One other thing that some people find interesting is that I always want great conditions at matches. This is because I'm not very good at shooting in switchy conditions. Especially at 200 yards. The 30-30 does have a slight edge at 200 yards. Something like 3.5" of drift vs 3.8" for the PPC in a 10 mph wind. However, I actually compete better against the 6 PPC in calm conditions, where it is a match of precision rather than shooting skill. This is where the 30-30 will shoot more ones than twos. At the Rattlesnake in Raton, we had very switchy conditions in the afternoon. The best 3 100 yard targets I shot with the 30-30 were: .198", .204", .227".

Michael
 
Lynn, all my 6BR testing was with Berger 105's. However, the lot of 205M's I used was about 20 years old and not at all like the current ones which is why in that article and the current one (it is in the Sept. issue, just found out) I specify that I'm not presenting a list of "best to worst" primers but rather a methodology for evaluating primers. There's too many variables for me (or anyone) to say that Brand X or Y or Z is the best (or even to define "best"). Unfortunately, the CCI 450 was not one of the ones I tested when I ran the 6BR tests, there was just too many to do at that time, most of which were not in the article because they were not commercially available.
 
Pete,
I will have an extra reamer that matches the print available for the same price as if you ordered one ($147 delivered). I had Dave Kiff grind me 2 of them. It would be unused. I decided to try one in carbide after I ordered the first one in high speed steel. You have first option for this reamer. If you don't want it, then it will be available to anyone that does.

Michael
 
mturner said:
Pete,
I will have an extra reamer that matches the print available for the same price as if you ordered one ($147 delivered). I had Dave Kiff grind me 2 of them. It would be unused. I decided to try one in carbide after I ordered the first one in high speed steel. You have first option for this reamer. If you don't want it, then it will be available to anyone that does.

Michael
Click to expand...

Yes, I want it. Thanks.

I will PM you with the details.
 
Michael, I have always been facinated with your 30-30's, I have seen them in action, and it is for real.

To cut your extractor cut-away, do you install the barrel, then mark where you have to cut, untill everything goes as it should?.......jackie
 
Jackie,
The first time I did it, that was pretty much how it was done. I tightened the barrel, and marked the headspace ring with a sharpie, then pulled the barrel and ground it with a dremel. After that, I made a barrel fitting tool that threads on the back of the barrel, and shoulders up just like the action would, so it's also a thread guage. This tool is used in conjuction with a depth mic. I measure the depth down to the headspace guage, and then down to the headspace ring. The difference needs to be .056". This tool is also marked to show me where I need to grind the headspace ring away. It also has a cone shaped insert that must spin, or the cone in the barrel isn't deep enough for bolt clearance. Now I just go to the shop and totally chamber, headspace, and grind the ring where it needs it. I don't even have to take the rifle with me for barrel fitting. I'm certain several gunsmiths have made similar tools for chambering the 6PPC.

Michael
 
Well, I finally got er together. I fireformed some cases Tuesday but habven't tried to shoot for accuracy yet. I am in the middle of a very busy week with trying t fit a long awaited Fly Fishin Trip into it. I'll get er shooting next week though.
 
No Joy in Midville

My first cople of forays with the 30-30 have not produced any accuracy. I believe I have been trying to shoot cases that are too long so will trim and see. Also try a couple other powder selections to see where that goes. The rifle acts well in the bags when firing it. Recoil seems less that my 30-284 x 1.650 or the 30-44 I use to shoot but it could be my imagination i suppose.
 
Keep us posted on your latest findings. I know from your last email that the cases were too long, and that you found much greater accuracy after trimming the cases. The smallest group you mentioned after trimming was a .178". Have you dialed it in any closer since then?

Michael
 
pngjasper said:
Do you find the case strongly prefers one primer to another, or picky about primer/powder combinations?
Click to expand...

I have not gotten that far yet. Years ago I shot a 30-HC, which is an Improved 30-30 with roughly the same capacity. I used cases of all makes including 30 American, which were made for SR primers. I prefered the Winchesters back then as they seemed to hold up better. I never was able to see any difference in accuracy, one case to another, however.

Federal Primers seemed to give me the best performance vs other brands over the years. I have stuck with the Federals since the beginning in the other cases I have used that required LR primers.

I am not a big believer in cases making a lot of diffrence, providing all of them are prepared properly. I have always considered them to be the container in which one places the things that really matter to accuracy. I know that in ancient history cases were an issue but I think those days have long since passed us. I have prepared Federal, 30 American, Winchester and RP cases for this rifle and will shoot all of them, trying to pay attention to which seem to perform best. I think it hard to tell, one day to the other, because of conditions. I don't seem to find the time, days on end, to do the testing to find out many of these things nor can I afford to spend that much on bullets, now that they cost half a fortune.

I did find a nice node in which one group measures .110 so I am going to go with that one for the matches this coming weekend. That Node seems to be wide enough to keep me on the 10 ring, at least, on both sides of that one group.
 
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