How I make the 30-30 Agg.

M

mturner

Member
Several people have asked how I make the 30-30 shoot so well. Some of the tricks are common now with the popularity of the 30BR. Back when I first started shooting the 30-30, super slow twist were unheard of. When I asked Hart to make me an 18" twist barrel, they were not willing because they said it wouldn't sell. I bugged them for a year, and they finally made a button and sent me a barrel. I think they figured it was more cost effective to do this than it would be for me to keep bugging them. Around that same time Krieger barrels had really started making a name for themselves. I asked them for a barrel of the same twist. I wound up speaking with Tracy Bartlein, and he also seemed curious about such a slow twist. They made one up, and it shot very well.

Now here is where it gets different than the 30BR. You don't need a full length die because you never bump the shoulder back. It just never gets tight, so the bolt always closes with ease. This keeps the headspace consistantly around zero. Next comes the modifications to the rim, primer pocket, and flash hole. By facing the rims in a lathe, you can keep the headspace between .0005" to .001". This is done by leaving metal coming back from the chamber, and then grinding it away at the bottom for the feeding, and around the top area for the extractor to run in. The primer pockets are uniformed in depth, and the flash holes are uniformed and shrunk from .082" down to .072". This is all done with my primer pocket swaging tool in about the same time as seating a bullet. After these modifications, simply turn the necks and start shooting groups that comapare to any BR caliber out there.

The 30-30 also like hot loads. Use any powder that works in a PPC or BR case. My last load of 43.5gr of Benchmark pushes a 115gr bullet at 3250 fps. I also have 14" and 16" barrels that shoot well with 150gr match bullets. A typical load is 38gr of N135 behind a 150 matchking for a velocity of 2800 fps.

I have uploaded pictured of these modifications below.

Michael

30-30RIM.jpg

Rim and flash hole modifications. Notice flash hole on left is smaller and more uniform. You can also see where the rim is faced off to a uniform thickness.

30-30Headspace.jpg

Barrel modified for headspacing, feeding, and extractor.
 
Michael, how are you machining the relief for the extractor and feed ramp.?
Is it a milling operation or a hand grinding...?
Also what is the neck diameter on your chamber..?
By the way you should show the photos of your custom self-made action..
It is a work of art...


Eddie in Texas
 
Eddie

Considering the way I do most things, I should use a rotary table and tilt the head of the mill, but I just use a dremel and grind it by hand. The neck on the reamer in .328", so I turn the necks to around .326" with bullet seated. I put a few action pictures in a earlier post when there was a discussion on preferred BR actions.

Michael
 
Bob

Bob Kingsbury said:
Is the body of your 30-30 case unchanged or is it improved at all ?
Click to expand...

I don't make any changes to the shoulder angle. The so-called improved versions are not really an improvement in this case. I mentioned that the shoulder never gets tight. This is because of the stock 15 degree angle and the thin brass. The 30 and 40 degree versions require bumping the shoulder, so they don't headspace as consistant. Some might wonder about brass flow with the stock 15 degree shoulder, but I have also found brass flow to be less since the shoulder isn't bumped. Everytime you bump a shoulder back, you get additional case stretch causing the need for more frequent trimming. Whats funny about the 30-30 is that I have found it the easiest to make cases for. The brass last very well. The extra 30 minutes of barrel work is offset by barrel life. I know that all calibers have to be tuned, but I shot the same load for three years at New Braunfals (40.0 gr of AA2015 with 125 gr Berger) and it set the range record for 100 & 200 yard score all three years. The 30-30 will never be popular in BR group shooting even though it will agg with the PPC. The number of top 3 finishes for group has been equal to score shooting. However, it should be first choice among a lot of hunter class shooters. It is simply the only 30-30 capacity case that is ready to go without necking up or down. It has a very long neck, so you never have to worry about seating a bullet down against the donut. The dies I use are a Lee collet die for the neck sizing and decapping, and a ring die for the base. The easiest ring die is a Lee carbide pistol die opened up to about .415" diameter.

Now here is something really interesting about the 30-30. I had a great shooting 25-06 that I had chambered up with a Douglas barrel. The barrel was sporter weight, and three shot groups averaged 1/2". After I started shooting the 30-30 in BR, and realizing it's accuracy and hard hitting capabilities, I decided to pull the 25-06 barrel and replace it with a 30-30 barrel. I has a stainless H-S Precision barrel with a 13" twist. I turned it to the same sporter taper and chambered it with my 30-30 tight neck BR reamer. It shoots TNT's and Nosler Ballistic Tips into 3/8" groups, and that's 5 shots compared to the 25-06 3 shot groups. Here is how it stacks up performance wise.

30-30 125 gr Ballistic Tip 3150 fps 24" barrel:
.366 B.C.
Muzzle energey is 2754 ft/lbs
Energy at 500 yards is 1059 ft/lbs
500 yard drop with 200 yard zero is 38.7"

25-06 100 gr Ballistic Tip 3300 fps 24" barrel
.393 B.C.
Muzzle energy is 2418 ft/lbs
Energy at 500 yards is 1019 ft/lbs
500 yard drop with 200 yard zero is 33.7"

So the 30-30 has more energy at the muzzle and at 500 yards, and only drops 5 more inches at 500 yards. It's consistanly a more accurate cartridge, and stays in tune much better. I'll take a 30-30 over a 25-06 any day for shots on game out to 500 yards. This is something I would have never thought before I started shooting the 30-30 in BR.

Michael
 
Lynn

Lynn said:
Michael
Did you make your own swaging tool to shrink your flashholes? Does it also tighten the primer pocket at the same time?
Lynn
Click to expand...

I did make the swaging tool. Several people have said "get a patent on that thing and sell them". Frank Wilson borrowed it many times to make cases for his hunter class rifle. It does not shrink the primer pocket. Here is what it does. It shrinks the flash hole to the diameter of a mandrel, so there is absolutly no variation in size. It removes the burr from the inside of the case where flash hole was punched. It uniforms the depth of the pocket, and makes the pocket flat in the bottom. This is all done in about 2 seconds using a reloading press.

Michael
 
Bob

Bob Kingsbury said:
I have no doubt at some time you have tried this without the small
flash holes, How does it compare?
Click to expand...

It would obviously take a lot of groups to tell much, but my opinion is that it is definitly better. If I had to guess, I think it takes at least .030" off the agg. Maybe I just shoot it better because in my mind I think it helps.

Michael
 
Michael this is a really fantastic thread, GOOD ON YA MAN!!!

Guys like you who thoroughly understand their subject matter AND who take the time to share with alla' us are what makes Wilbur's forum so great. This is a print-of-and-keep thread for sure.


Thank You


al
 
I may be mistaken, but I think a magnum boltface and a 360degree
step at chamber mouth might be workable with no rim turn.
Have you ever tried that with the Fed small pocket cases.
 
I use to shoot - -

and still have a 30-HC, which is an improved 30-30. The first barrel I had for it shoots well but the second doesn't. With it, I turned the rims down to 308 size and they work fine in a standard bolt. I think the Aardvark cases are made the same way. If one doesn't have a lathe, they would be difficult to make. I gave up on it when the first barrel gave up.

It is indeed interesting to see this work going on. Interesting how such a Plain Jane can become a true performer. When I use to shoot the HC I had both small primer cases and regular large primer cases. I never thought I could see any difference in their accuracy but I shoot HBR Score, not group.

It is also interesting that some folks seem to think "Improved" cases are beneficial, always, when this work shows that they aren't necessary to find great performance. NEW LIFE for the humble 30-30! Wonder why the former makers couldn't find the efficiency and accuracy.
 
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Pete,

IMO that headspacing ring is the key........ seeing it was worth twice the price of admission :cool:


al
 
Pete

If you ever want to try the 30-30 with the stock shoulder angle, let me know. That is if you still shoot HBR. It is not necessary to headspace as close as I do by facing the rims to the same thickness. As a matter of fact, I have been shooting the 30-30 since 1995 and I faced the rims for the first time a week ago. I opened up the bolt face to take the 30-30, but bolt face size isn't critical. I can pull PPC diameter and smaller cases with nothing more than an extractor change. I do have interchangeable bushings for different size cases, but I never use them.

Michael
 
Bob

Bob Kingsbury said:
I may be mistaken, but I think a magnum boltface and a 360degree
step at chamber mouth might be workable with no rim turn.
Have you ever tried that with the Fed small pocket cases.
Click to expand...
My LV has a 30-30 size bolt face, but the barrel in the picture goes with my HV 30-30. I made that action with a magnum bolt face, so you guessed it right. I wanted to be able to use any case from 222 Rem to 30-338 Win Mag. Both of these actions accept the whole range of rim sizes. As far as the 30 American brass goes. A fellow shooter from New Braunfalls who shoots a 219 Donaldson Wasp offer to give me 20 cases with the small primer pocket. I thanked him for such a generous offer, but turned him down since I would have a hard time getting more if I liked it. I personally believe the large is just as good. The shrinking of the flash hole seems to be all I need, and even that isn't proven necessary.

Michael
 
Michael, thanks so much for sharing all of that information, that's a fascinating project.

I just have to ask - what primer are you using in the 30-30?
 
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German

I'm glad you find this post interesting. I use Federal 210's. Sometimes I will use 210M's, but I really can't see the difference.

Michael
 
Thanks Michael. If you come to Phoenix sometime, let's get together, I'd like to give you a sampling of primers to try.
 
mturner said:
If you ever want to try the 30-30 with the stock shoulder angle, let me know. That is if you still shoot HBR. It is not necessary to headspace as close as I do by facing the rims to the same thickness. As a matter of fact, I have been shooting the 30-30 since 1995 and I faced the rims for the first time a week ago. I opened up the bolt face to take the 30-30, but bolt face size isn't critical. I can pull PPC diameter and smaller cases with nothing more than an extractor change. I do have interchangeable bushings for different size cases, but I never use them.

Michael
Click to expand...


Mike,i chambered a barrel with a 15 twist for the 30-30 and i turned the rims down to ppc size,i head spaced the case off the shoulder and put the barrel on a heavy rail gun.
I used 125 grain Bergers and h-4895 powder and also the old gi-322.
Yes,i was supprised how good it shot and the aggs i got from it.
Then i rechambered it to the 30-30 Ackley improved,it did shoot better but like you stated,i had to bump the shoulder for each loading.
I used the federal 30 american case,but i had some hang fires with 205-m primers,i switched to rem 7 1/2 and they worked,i switched to sr magnum primers and groups went to crap.
 
Roger, that's a great post and it fits just right with some of what I've seen in testing primers. The 205M (recent ones) have a medium flame and proved marginal in your application (medium sized case) the Remingtons have a huge flame and worked, the SRM (I'm assuming Russian) have a very small flame and didn't get the job done. A small primer with a small flame in a medium case just doesn't cut it as you've demonstrated.

I'd like to give Michael some Russian large primers, some RWS and a couple of non-commercial types to see what he finds. Exciting times we live in!
 
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