Good yesterday, bad today, good tomorrow.

N

nonliberal

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I have experienced this several times and can't really figure out a good explanation.

I can work all day and find the "perfect load" for a particular rifle and it feels like I can't miss shooting some tiny little groups. I finish the day happy as a lark thinking I'm really on to something. Sometimes I will even leave the gun on the bench so I can shoot the next day. The next time that "perfect load" might not have 2 holes touching in a 3 shot group. I can pull out another rifle and shoot well, then try again and that load just won't shoot. The weather and temps can be identical to the day before. Then I might take that same load out a few days later and shoot tiny groups again...


What makes a load so inconsistent?
I experience this even with 30 calibers and extreme powders. Same pieces of brass, no die adjustments, etc.
 
It must be an anomaly, That's just wierd..:eek:...Seriously....Are you pre-loading or at the range. Assuming you are using windflags, are you shooting in same condition each outing ? i.e. L-R, R-L, etc. are you monitoring humidity? and how are you reading mirage?
 
Truth be told,this happens to most Benchrest shooters. more often than not. Some people know what to change when it occurs and some are lost. Like me.


Glenn
 
Amen brother benchrest shooter! That's the way it is, its reality. knowing when to make an adjustment is part of the game. If everything was consistant and everyone could shoot small groups all the time it would be boring!
I would like to give you an intelligent answer, but I don't believe there is one, too many variables. However, my gut tells me it has something to do with air density. Good luck in your quest.

MAC
 
Sounds like your shooting N133. Try something else. Lee

I wont say who, but at the last Big benchrest shoot i attended, one of the best 6ppc shooters in the game made a comment after shooting his first group of the day. That comments was, " Now tell me we dont have powder issues with this crap" If your shooting N133, it can be very demanding. I like to have at least three powders that i can depend on. Well at least two!! A third is a bonus. Lee
 
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Thanks guys! Glad i'm not the only one this happens to.

LHsmith, The range I use the most is actually at my house so I shoot a group, go in and load something else and shoot another group. I am using the flags and being careful picking the conditions, but I have not been paying much attention to humidity or Barometer, only temps. (I guess I need to start)

I am seeing a pattern though to correct the issues when they arise. It seems like if the bullets are spread out all over I can go down .2 grains and shrink the group. And when they are a vertical string I can go up .2 and shrink the group.

The big problem I can't grasp is learning to diagnose when the change is going to take place before it happens. How can someone preload if they don't know if they need to be + or - .2? I would love to preload. I guess I could load 3 separate batches and pick what works that day, but I'm a score shooter so I would need to load 300 rounds and I don't know how long the batch I use the least would keep consistent neck tension..
 
Home ranges are bad.....

Unless you live out in the open prairie, home ranges are plagued with gremlins. Not only are they plagued with gremlins but you've got no one to help you establish a baseline for the day. It took me ten years of frustration to get a grip on this fact. Add to this problems with gun handling and delivery and you find that it's TRUE that "you'll learn more and advance further in just a few competition shoots than you will in years at home." Shooting on public ranges and with professional and competitive shooters completely changed the way I handle my home range. I now have known setups that I use for testing conditions, platforms of KNOWN accuracy which when fired free recoil from a marked setup WILL group tiny. And I have trust that if they DON'T group tiny then it's gremlins, probably in the air down range. Some days WON'T SHOOT.

And I keep a log, EVERY day, EVERY variable, EVERY round fired.......... it takes forever but it's worth it.

A story, possibly boring;

Mebbeso 15yrs ago I made the acquaintance of the late Del Bishop. Del was a good shooter. I remember the first time I shot with him. I asked how long we'd be at the range, he said "oh, 4-5hrs." So I showed up with a couple rifles, spare barrels and a wheelbarrowfull of reloading stuff and we went at it.

Two hours of shooting I'd put bunches of groups down range.......... Del had fired 2 groups!

I swapped out rifles and barrels, played with loads, tested all sorts of junk and Del fired a couple more groups.

And for long stretches he just SAT, din't do nuttin, just looked around. (He did ask me once "why are you shooting?" I looked at him in complete bafflement, "well that's why I'm here... right??")

Point is, at the end of the day Del had charted one aggregate. With notes and observations and breakdowns. He also fired two groups with a new bullet, wham-bam, back-to-back, TWO steenking groups!!! In like two minnits. I figgered old guy hadda' shoot with a crutch until that...... "I guess he CAN put 'em down when he wants to..."

But I'd have crammed another agg in easy.... and half the time, no, 3/4 of the time, Del was looking and writing and scheming (those who knew Del know what I mean and it's a good thing)

I also got Del to fire a group with my new 30cal, he did better than me, commented that "it drifted just like his 65."

And he insisted I fire a group with his latest-greatest PPC, his rifle was no better than mine. (I still shot a duck-shaped group :) )


I guess what I'm trying to say is, IMO it ain't the powder............ and what I am trying to get across would take pages of typing. But take time, keep GOOD NOTES, be methodical and when you find gold spend all your resources trying to repeat it but remember WHAT YOU SEE AIN'T WHAT YOU GET on a home range unless it's indoors. All ranges are unpredictable but home ranges are often the worst. I've been driving home from work just GLOATING over the day, my guys at work have had to lissen to "DUDE! Now this would be some good shootin' right here!!!" I've rushed out to the range many times to catch the perfect conditions...... and sometimes I've fired 5-15rds and given up!

I've burned buckets of primers just wearing barrels out on un-shootable days and have learned that some days just aren't worth it. And some situations are just horrible. My 350yd butt right now is growing in.... and it's getting worse. It's a liar...It shoots over a crick and through the trees and it's only honest about 20% of the time and basically ONLY when it's raining.

Anyways, enough rambling from this backyard hacker. Good luck in your quest but my advice is to bend that 'luck' with GOOD notes :) and MORE of them. And remember that some days just DON'T SHOOT! (and night time doesn't shoot, and over snow is a mess, and mirage and boil can be the MOST honest and the LEAST honest things, and "dead calm" aint... etc etc)


opinionsby



al
 
noniliberal i'm no expert by any means,But i have been plagued by the same kind of troubles..shooting group's..
what i have learned and it seems to vary by what powder you burn..is it can take a full grain in a half to two full grains of powder to go from a mornig tune to afternoon.
and example is just recently i was shooting 26.5 gr's of powder in the morning at 65 deg F(80%RH) it was just shooting in a hole,then in the afternoon at 78 deg F(48%RH)
it took 28.0 gr's of powder to keep it shooting..so i dont think .2 gr's if enough of a change to do anything to the load..IF it's not shooting well. you may want to take .5 to .6 gr changes..then if .6 gr or 1.0 gr helped it then you could tweek .3 gr's up or down to try and fine tune that.can you load in the middle and get away with it.? I dont really know.
 
I guess I do need to slow it down and take better notes. I have found that since I built my home range I do go through a lot more bullets. The powder is an extreme powder (H4198 and H322) so that may account for the swings not being too big. I noticed Boyer said in his book that he gets inconsistent results when he is jumping bullets instead of being seated in the lands. I guess it's possible since I am just out of the lands, maybe I need to go back and try working on a good seating depth with more jam?
Has anyone else noticed one seating depth being more inconsistent than another?
 
Why not start shooting everything over a chronograph for a while? Generally, I figure that powder changes according to the conditions that it is exposed to and for that reason, it may not make exactly the same pressure and velocity. If tune is velocity specific...well you see where I am going. Are you loading by volume or weight? When the load mysteriously changes, how much are you having to adjust it to get back in tune? Another issue can be how powder fouling sets up, and whether your cleaning method is properly taking care of the throat area. Sometimes, even though the color of the patches looks good, there can be some hard carbon lurking where it can hurt your accuracy. A friend that I have known for a long time, once read an article that said that bronze brushes are bad for barrels, so after that he would soak and patch with solvent until the patches looked good. Finally he figured out that his cleaning method wasn't getting it done, and magically his results became much more consistent.
 
Why not start shooting everything over a chronograph for a while? Generally, I figure that powder changes according to the conditions that it is exposed to and for that reason, it may not make exactly the same pressure and velocity. If tune is velocity specific...well you see where I am going. Are you loading by volume or weight? When the load mysteriously changes, how much are you having to adjust it to get back in tune? Another issue can be how powder fouling sets up, and whether your cleaning method is properly taking care of the throat area. Sometimes, even though the color of the patches looks good, there can be some hard carbon lurking where it can hurt your accuracy. A friend that I have known for a long time, once read an article that said that bronze brushes are bad for barrels, so after that he would soak and patch with solvent until the patches looked good. Finally he figured out that his cleaning method wasn't getting it done, and magically his results became much more consistent.

I'm only adjusting a couple tenths in each direction to get back in tune. I load by weight, I read the same thing about the bronze brushes and switched to nylon, Carb out, Butches, and Wipeout at the end of the day. I might need to start back with the brush. Chrono isn't a bad idea either.
 
Well, I stand corrected :) looks like gremlins it ain't eh.....! If you can tune 'em out it ain't range gremlins.

LOL

al
 
When I first used Carb Out I followed the directions and used a nylon brush, and it did not give satisfactory results. The next time that I used it, I used a bronze brush, with a 20 minute soak beforehand, and a lot of brushing after. ( The barrel was very dirty, so I did it twice.) It seemed to work OK. Later when I discussed this with the fellow who came up with the product, he told me that a very famous benchrest shooter, who had endorsed the product had come to the same conclusion, that a bronze brush was needed for best results. Personally, I have come to the conclusion that a little careful work with JB is not a bad thing, every so often, carefully and lightly done, especially when shooting powders other than 133, which seems to get along without.

If a small load adjustment brings things back into focus, then it is likely that you do not have a cleaning problem. I would go with a change in moisture content of the powder. Try keeping your powder bottle closed at all times, returning scraps of powder to a separate bottle while loading, and dumping it all back in the big jug at the end of the day, and shaking it up a bit. Also, cover you powder bottles on and off of the measure, so that they are not heated by the sun. These measures may keep the powder more consistent.
 
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nonliberal,

What round, rifle, etc are you shooting. If .2 brings it in and out of tune, there is more going on than powder and since you are loading in your house. I don't see it as an issue. There are many things that can show the effect you are having and I will list some.

1. Wrong Seating Depth (this is the single most important thing in accuracy when considering a load)
2. Finicky barrel (this will show up on a load plot)
3. Finicky gun (this will show up on load plot)
4. Powder (H4198 & H322 can cause the most painfull loading experiences known to mankind)
5. Bullets


Do a load plot and post a pic of the groups with info. Need a good clear pic. Also, all the info you can provide about the load, bullets, gun can help. My bet would be on either the powder or seating depth.

Hovis
 
nonliberal,

What round, rifle, etc are you shooting. If .2 brings it in and out of tune, there is more going on than powder and since you are loading in your house. I don't see it as an issue. There are many things that can show the effect you are having and I will list some.

1. Wrong Seating Depth (this is the single most important thing in accuracy when considering a load)
2. Finicky barrel (this will show up on a load plot)
3. Finicky gun (this will show up on load plot)
4. Powder (H4198 & H322 can cause the most painfull loading experiences known to mankind)
5. Bullets


Do a load plot and post a pic of the groups with info. Need a good clear pic. Also, all the info you can provide about the load, bullets, gun can help. My bet would be on either the powder or seating depth.

Hovis

This is for a 30BR. I went to St louis Benchrest today and did some shooting. Today it shot well until around 1:30 when it got in the upper 90s then it started opening up. I tried going down .2 and it didn't do anything for it so I went down another .2 and still didn't get better but I was out of time and had to leave. How much swing do you guys normally see from temps ranging from 75* in the morning to 100* in the afternoon? I will work on the load plot soon. It shoots great 90% of time, but I'm just not good enough to stay on top of it yet.
 
I think the amount you are adjusting just isn't enough. When shooting at the east west, I worked within a 1.8 grain range in the load with a not so finicky powder lot. Now that was for a 6PPC, not a 30BR. One of the hardest things to learn is not being afraid to give that knob on the thrower a big turn. Most of the time we get used to small changes making a difference so it makes us apprehensive to go big. With the heat being the way it has been here in the midwest, I've noticed that I have to make bigger changes than normal. Weird Weather. Also, watch them bullet holes.

Hovis
 
Thanks Hovis, I took my daughter out to the East/West match as spectators just to watch the pros in action at 200 it was a good learning experience watching when to shoot and when not to shoot. I think i do need to try some wider adjustments and maybe try the lower accuracy node since i'm running on the hot one. From what i've been reading the hot load may not be as forgiving as one a little lighter and more prone to spike.
 
Try some Benchmark in your 30BR. Velocity will be less but i bet you smile when your done. I saw you and your daughter at the East West. Pretty cool stuff, wouldnt you say? Good Luck. Lee
 
Okay my question is, We throw by volume but does the powder burn by volume or weight? Does this make sense?

Reason I ask is I was shooting 2015 and found I had to go up on my Harrels from 54clks to 55.1 to equal the same weight (28.9/30 grs) between home and Billings.

When I found that spot I felt the rifle shot as well as I figured it should. The only reason I feel the aggs were not as good as they could be is my inexperience in recognizing the pickups and let offs. If I hit the condition just right it would drill them in there.

I have more testing to do to confirm this but I am adament that I must verify my volume charges by weighing them to make sure I am getting the same weight.
 
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