Feedback from the tunnel 08-21-18

Gene Beggs

Active member
Loading and shooting the no-turn 220 Beggs (aka Lapua 220 Russian)

The question often comes up as to whether or not a no-turn neck shoots as well as a tight neck. I suppose one would have to say, 'It depends.' Yes, it depends on the quality of the brass case and the design of the chamber.

The Lapua 220 Russian case, right out of the box, has very concentric neck wall thickness. A loaded round measures .254 with only .001 total runout. The neck diameter of the Beggs no-turn chamber is .257 leaving plenty of room for the case neck to completely release the bullet. Freebore is such that a 52 grain flat base bullet seats a little more than half way down the neck.

Hodgdon H-322 and Alliant LT-32 are perfect powders for the 220 Beggs. A thrown charge from a 17 caliber drop tube provides 100% load density and results in around 3500 to 3550 fps. A .2530 carbide neck bushing provides perfect neck tension. A .2525 bushing should be kept in reserve. As always, I recommend seating the bullets 'just off' the lands.

"Okay Beggs, all this is well and good but answer the question; 'Does the no-turn version shoot as well as a tight neck?'
YES! Darn right, it does! :)

In both the 220 and 6mm Beggs cartridges, I have seen no difference in accuracy between the tight-neck and the no-turn versions. The 220 tight neck uses a .250 diameter, the no-turn a .257. In the 6mm Beggs the tight neck is .269, the no-turn .274. The Hornady Custom Shop makes the sizing dies and I keep them in stock. The same die sizes both the 220 and 6mm by changing only the neck bushing.

Of course, I realize that to suggest to a bunch of benchresters that you can have benchrest accuracy in any cartridge without laborious neck turning is asking for trouble, :eek: but what the hell. This won't be the first time I've been on the receiving end of skepticism. :p

Just think how nice it is to simply pluck 20 new Lapua 220 Russian cases from either the old gold, cardboard box or the later blue plastic box, load 'em and shoot! :cool: By the way, the only case preparation is to run the new cases over either a 22 or 6mm expansion mandrel, (depending on caliber) lightly deburr the inside case mouth which makes seating the first bullet easier. Yeah, at first I tried to seat bullets without doing that and promptly crumpled the neck on the first case. :mad:

Well, that's about all I know about that. Oh, by the way, almost forgot; when fireforming the new cases the first time, be sure to thoroughly lubricate the loaded round, bullet and all with light oil, grease or better yet, Imperial sizing die wax. It's better to use a little too much lube than not enough. (Say what?:mad: Are you nuts?:mad:) :)Yeah, I've been accused of being nuts before but believe me, lubing the new cases before fireforming is very important. Both Ratigan and Boyer cover this in their books and I'll go over it carefully in my next, "Feedback From The Tunnel."

Flame away because that's the subject of my next thread; 'Lubricating loaded rounds before fireforming.:cool:

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Gene, how consistent in diameter and concentricity is this batch of brass?.

Jerry, I have an unopened new blue box of cases I picked up in Phoenix at the Cactus. I'll mike the necks and see how they look, but I have never seen a batch of Lapua 220 Russian cases with problems. Through the years since Lapua started making the 220 Russian, I have probably gone through five thousand rounds. Of course, I haven't used all those myself but I've turned a lot of brass for friends as well.

I'll get back to you with more information.

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Gene, your right on the money

Rod Stapleton, a fairly new shooter went to the line with Norma brass right out of the box and shot a low .18 agg at Raton in the LV 100. He used 3 in 1 oil on the new cases. He was preloaded and did a great job of twisting the tuner to keep the gun shooting.

Richard Brensing
 
Good Report

Rod Stapleton, a fairly new shooter went to the line with Norma brass right out of the box and shot a low .18 agg at Raton in the LV 100. He used 3 in 1 oil on the new cases. He was preloaded and did a great job of twisting the tuner to keep the gun shooting.

Richard Brensing


That's good to hear Richard. I have not tried the Norma brass but will check it out.
I'll bet Rod Stapleton is one of your tuner school graduates; huh? :cool:

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Gene, how did you guess :)

Yes, Rod has been working very hard on learning the tuner. When he is down at the range I will watch him make tuning decisions at think " he knows what he's doing!!" It's great when somebody finally "gets it"
when it comes to tuners.

I shot next to Bro D at Raton and it was a pleasure to watch what he could do with a tuner also. Watched him shoot a .134 at 200 yds. He said " do you think that's a .2" I had to laugh and said that's a .150 or better!!

Richard Brensing
 
Yes, Rod has been working very hard on learning the tuner. When he is down at the range I will watch him make tuning decisions at think " he knows what he's doing!!" It's great when somebody finally "gets it"
when it comes to tuners.

Richard Brensing


Yes sir Richard, I know what you mean when you say, "It's great when somebody finally 'gets it' when it comes to tuners."

We have come a long way with centerfire tuners. It's been fun and a very interesting project.

There are many who have contributed lots of money and time to bring us to where we are today. If I started mentioning names I'm sure I would inadvertently leave out someone who should be included so I'll just say, "You all know who you are." Good job. Thanks for sharing.

Gene Beggs
 
Flame away because that's the subject of my next thread; 'Lubricating loaded rounds before fireforming

Later,

Gene Beggs[/QUOTE]

Gene
My procedure for new cases (Lapua 220 Russian)
1. Load 50 cases in loading tray
2. Spray on 4 sides of cases (Also goes down in the neck some) with Hornady "One Shot case lube"
3. Expand neck to .243
4. Turn necks to 0.0084--I do add lube to cutter mandrel
5. Load and shoot for first fire forming
6. Respray with "One Shot" and size for reloading.
7. I now clean the case for the first time since starting with new case.
8. Its now ready for 2nd fire forming but done with no lube or spray.

I have no issue with those that use oils/Imperial die wax etc but I have found no adverse effects on case life with my procedure.

If changing to oils/imperial die wax etc to fire form will guarantee Teen aggs I will switch tomorrow.

As you state above "FLAME AWAY"

CLP
 
Last edited:
Sounds good to me

Flame away because that's the subject of my next thread; 'Lubricating loaded rounds before fireforming

Later,

Gene Beggs

Gene
My procedure for new cases (Lapua 220 Russian)
1. Load 50 cases in loading tray
2. Spray on 4 sides of cases (Also goes down in the neck some) with Hornady "One Shot case lube"
3. Expand neck to .243
4. Turn necks to 0.00084--I do add lube to cutter mandrel
5. Load and shoot for first fire forming
6. Respray with "One Shot" and size for reloading.
7. I now clean the case for the first time since starting with new case.
8. Its now ready for 2nd fire forming but done with no lube or spray.

I have no issue with those that use oils/Imperial die wax etc but I have found no adverse effects on case life with my procedure.

If changing to oils/imperial die wax etc to fire form will guarantee Teen aggs I will switch tomorrow.

As you state above "FLAME AWAY"

CLP[/QUOTE]



C.L. Peterson, (Cecil, isn't it?)

I see no problem with your case prep procedures. You are lubricating the cases before that critical first firing which prevents stretching of the web area. That's all that matters.

I have not tried Hornady One Shot spray lube. Sounds like a quick, easy way and obviously it works well for you. I'm always looking for quick, easy ways to do things. I'll give it a shot. :)

Do you seat the bullets long and jam them into the lands with heavy neck tension for the first firing?

Do you fireform the first time with a reduced load?

Wonder how many noticed that you turn your neck wall thickness extremely thin? (.00084?):eek: Sorry, I couldn't resist.:rolleyes:

I was glad you made no mention of drilling flash holes and/or reaming primer pockets. I quit touching those a long time ago. Needlessly increasing the diameter of flash holes contributes to loose primer pockets.

What kind of solvent do you use to remove lube before second firing?

Thanks for the input. Good shootin'!

Gene Beggs
 
Gene
My procedure for new cases (Lapua 220 Russian)
1. Load 50 cases in loading tray
2. Spray on 4 sides of cases (Also goes down in the neck some) with Hornady "One Shot case lube"
3. Expand neck to .243
4. Turn necks to 0.00084--I do add lube to cutter mandrel
5. Load and shoot for first fire forming
6. Respray with "One Shot" and size for reloading.
7. I now clean the case for the first time since starting with new case.
8. Its now ready for 2nd fire forming but done with no lube or spray.

I have no issue with those that use oils/Imperial die wax etc but I have found no adverse effects on case life with my procedure.

If changing to oils/imperial die wax etc to fire form will guarantee Teen aggs I will switch tomorrow.

As you state above "FLAME AWAY"

CLP



C.L. Peterson, (Cecil, isn't it?)--You are correct.

I see no problem with your case prep procedures. You are lubricating the cases before that critical first firing which prevents stretching of the web area. That's all that matters.

I have not tried Hornady One Shot spray lube. Sounds like a quick, easy way and obviously it works well for you. I'm always looking for quick, easy ways to do things. I'll give it a shot. :)

Do you seat the bullets long and jam them into the lands with heavy neck tension for the first firing?Yes I seat them 15-20 thousands longer than JAM.
The neck tension is as they come out of the neck cutter-I don't measure it. They feel firm on loading.
I always use boat tailed bullets to load 1st time to avoid skinning the bullet.
I have never damaged a case neck on first loading that I remember.

Do you fireform the first time with a reduced load?
1st fire forming load is 49.5 clicks on powder measure (RFD) of LT32
2nd fire forming load is 53.5 clicks on powder measure of LT32
After 2nd firing I trim the case length for the first time and subsequent lengths of 1.495
I use a dedicated barrel for the fire forming---It has been abused badly
I have "Set Up-adjust the dies bullets" left over from my bullet making days for fire forming.
I try to do my case prep as a winter project--shooting in January in Iowa keeps the barrel cool???

Wonder how many noticed that you turn your neck wall thickness extremely thin? (.00084?):eek: Sorry, I couldn't resist.:rolleyes:
I think there is an extra 0 in my neck thickness dimensions--good catch--will correct.

I was glad you made no mention of drilling flash holes and/or reaming primer pockets. I quit touching those a long time ago. Needlessly increasing the diameter of flash holes contributes to loose primer pockets.
I agree there is no need for either procedure.
I do clean primer pockets at matches but not for practice--I'm not sure it makes much difference????

What kind of solvent do you use to remove lube before second firing?
Because I fire form 100 cases at a time I clean cases with vibrating tumbler and corn cob media.

Thanks for the input. Good shootin'!

Gene Beggs[/QUOTE]

Gene I enjoy your input on this forum.
Wish you were closer--would love to shoot in the tunnel!!!!!

CLP
 
Cecil,

Norma cases are a little short on the shoulder. Depending on how your rifle is headspaced they tend to be around .005-.007 short. The oil just makes sure the case doesn't grow to the chamber by stretching at the web as Gene stated.
Nothing to do with how the gun shoots as far as I know. I shoot a .270 nk chamber and having been using the Norma right out of the box. I preload all of my stuff anymore so it sure makes it easier loading that many cases.
Will have to see how long they last. I don't shoot a super hot load, right at 3350 fps.
Have a good stash of Lapua to fall back on if things don't work out on case life.

Richard
 
Jerry, I have an unopened new blue box of cases I picked up in Phoenix at the Cactus. I'll mike the necks and see how they look, but I have never seen a batch of Lapua 220 Russian cases with problems. Through the years since Lapua started making the 220 Russian, I have probably gone through five thousand rounds. Of course, I haven't used all those myself but I've turned a lot of brass for friends as well. I'll get back to you with more information.

Later, Gene Beggs



Hey Jerry. Bet you thought I forgot that I promised to get back to you on this; huh? :rolleyes: Nope! Not this time.

Using a Mitutoyo ball mike, the neck wall thickness of a random selection of cases showed the average to be .0147 with one small bump nearing .0149. I figured that was good enough to justify using them as they come from the box. My no-turn chambers are .257, the loaded rounds are .2540. My 6mm chambers are .274, loaded rounds mic .271.

In recent times, I've noticed that many of the long range benchresters have more often than not been using no-turn necks with various versions of the 6br.

Of course, I realize that most benchresters enjoy suffering and wasting time with unnecessary steps in case preparation such as neck turning to the nearest gazillionth, reaming/cleaning primer pockets, drilling and chamfering flash holes, brushing inside the necks, polishing in vibratory tumblers, polishing outside necks with Nevr Dull, carefully washing off lube with brake cleaner on a rag at each reloading, obsessive trimming to length at each loading, etc., etc., ad infinitum. :rolleyes:

When they start awarding extra points for the best looking and most consistent cases, I might reconsider some of this but until that happens I won't waste any more time with any of it.

Hope all is going well with you this year.

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Hey Jerry. Bet you thought I forgot that I promised to get back to you on this; huh? :rolleyes: Nope! Not this time.

Using a Mitutoyo ball mike, the neck wall thickness of a random selection of cases showed the average to be .0147 with one small bump nearing .0149. I figured that was good enough to justify using them as they come from the box. My no-turn chambers are .257, the loaded rounds are .2540. My 6mm chambers are .274, loaded rounds mic .271.

In recent times, I've noticed that many of the long range benchresters have more often than not been using no-turn necks with various versions of the 6br.

Of course, I realize that most benchresters enjoy suffering and wasting time with unnecessary steps in case preparation such as neck turning to the nearest gazillionth, reaming/cleaning primer pockets, drilling and chamfering flash holes, brushing inside the necks, polishing in vibratory tumblers, polishing outside necks with Nevr Dull, carefully washing off lube with brake cleaner on a rag at each reloading, obsessive trimming to length at each loading, etc., etc., ad infinitum. :rolleyes:

When they start awarding extra points for the best looking and most consistent cases, I might reconsider some of this but until that happens I won't waste any more time with any of it.

Hope all is going well with you this year.

Later,

Gene Beggs


Gene, if they gave awards for "ugliest" brass, I'd probably win at most matches.

I agree with most of what you said. I do have one question though. Do you see the same neck thickness consistency after expanding the brass up to 6mm?

I'm a believer in no turn chambers but have long lived by a rule a thumb, being that if I neck up or down, I turn necks.
 
That's the plain truth! I've never had a competition chamber that could shoot unturned necks but I never concerned myself about whether the necks were consistent but rather would they chamber and shoot safely. Let my necks grow too thick once and the rifle shot poorly but that said...it didn't shoot well to begin with. :) On the other hand, I can't say perfect, clean, and shiny cases won't shoot as well as cases that are not kept to that standard but I can say I'm SURE it's a waste of time.
 
Good Question

Gene, if they gave awards for "ugliest" brass, I'd probably win at most matches. I agree with most of what you said. I do have one question though. Do you see the same neck thickness consistency after expanding the brass up to 6mm?


Mike, I have only chambered one 6mm Beggs No-Turn barrel. It shot well and everything worked just fine but I got caught up in other projects and only shot it in the tunnel. I still have the barrel and cases and will take a look at the neck wall consistency after they have been fired and resized a few times.

I hope no one has gotten the impression that they can use no-turn cases in just any rifle. :eek: Surely not. :p
The reamers used for the no-turn chambers were designed specifically for that application and the barrel tenons are engraved with the neck diameters. I'll get back to you about your question after I do some measuring.

Thanks for the input. Hope all is well.

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Question?

That's the plain truth! I've never had a competition chamber that could shoot unturned necks but I never concerned myself about whether the necks were consistent but rather would they chamber and shoot safely. Let my necks grow too thick once and the rifle shot poorly but that said...it didn't shoot well to begin with. :) On the other hand, I can't say perfect, clean, and shiny cases won't shoot as well as cases that are not kept to that standard but I can say I'm SURE it's a waste of time.


Wilbur, it's good to get your comments. I do have a question though; you say you once let your case necks grow too thick and the rifle shot poorly. I don't understand how case necks can grow after being put into use. :confused:

Hopefully everyone understands that I'm not suggesting using un-turned cases in a chamber that was not designed specifically for that purpose.

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Something you "dirty neck" guys

need to think about. Not everybody runs a bushing die with hardened steel or carbide bushings.
Carbon is abrasive, you do that with a unhardened die and will last no time. Even melonited dies won't take that kind of abuse for very long.
I keep my necks clean, not that it makes it shoot better but to keep die working correctly.

Richard Brensing
 
Well,,, maybe,, I did get,,,

need to think about. Not everybody runs a bushing die with hardened steel or carbide bushings.
Carbon is abrasive, you do that with a unhardened die and will last no time. Even melonited dies won't take that kind of abuse for very long.
I keep my necks clean, not that it makes it shoot better but to keep die working correctly.

Richard Brensing


,,,a little carried away when I dissed wiping fired case necks clean before sizing. :eek: Good point Richard. I must remember that unlike me, not everyone has abandoned all thought of keeping things neat, clean and orderly.

Okay, you can wipe your fired case necks one swipe before lubing and sizing but not after. How's that?

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
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