Factory Class at the National level

[Charles E]

This post isn't aimed at all the people who have already made up their minds -- after all, they have already made up their minds.

But what happens when a factory class moves from the local, club level to a class recognized in National Competition, is one more item is added to the component search. For example, in Centerfire benchrest, the big search is for barrels, and at a lesser level, bullets. Guys who can afford -- or win -- 10+ barrels a year have an advantage. In rimfire benchrest, it seems to be lots of ammunition. Don't really know.

This isn't just theory, the rifle/component search for better factory equipment has already happened in several sports where such a class exists.

If Factory Class went to the National Class, the search would be first for a good action -- that is, a true one, then for good barrels.

Consider that of every 1,000 Remingtons made, one or two are as good --performance wise -- from the factory as the average bench gun. No telling what they are chambered in. Might be a .458 Win Mag, and no one will know. But if 700s flow through your hands for some reason, you can look for actions that are true. Eventually, you'll find a good one. Then you look for take-off barrels in the chambering you've chosen. Again, if you are in a position to test a number of them, you'll find good ones.

The bell-shaped accuracy curve for BR rifles has pretty narrow bell. The same curve for factory rifles is quite broad. Searching for components narrows it considerably.

The net result is the die-hard competitors have a new class to play with, one where their advantage over the new shooter is even greater then a "regular" class. New shooters like to feel they have a chance; that their equipment is competitive. With what is suppose to be a level playing field, when their scores or groups don't even come close, a number are going to bear down & get good, but a larger number are going to just quit benchrest and find a different competition.

This doesn't even touch on a few things you can do in machining (cheating, in this case), that will slightly improve factory components.

The particular problem I mention could be minimized by combining a nationally sanctioned Factory Class with rookie status. The problems others have noted remain, of course.

 

[Dick Wright]

Charles...

I don't think Factory Class on a National level would work. I think we are wasting our time to even try it.

To me, Factory Class is a starter class, a way to introduce new shooters to the sport without making them buy a competitive BR gun and all the necessary accessories.

The idea is to let them shoot the varmint/hunting gun they have and, if they like it, buy a real gun and get serious. A lot of people like competing in the class and chose to stay in it.

For one thing, we aren't nearly good enough at writing rules to even try something like defining a factory rifle. And you are absolutely right, it would quickly degenerate into a search for that perfect rifle and we would be right back where we are now... "Buy twenty barrels and take the best one to the Super Shoot."

Dick

 

[mike in co]

what dick said.

the one comment i made was an attempt to make it a "normal" factory rifle...not a semi custiom single shot savage.
so i said establish a base line of pricing. not more than the cost of a known comdity...a rem 700 in 30/06, 270 ...or a varmit round. and then allow a few bucks over. price for the rifle, not the scope.
and yes a a started class...not what happened to the hunter class.

mike in co

 

[Cheechako]

Mike

I'm glad you brought up Hunter Class because I was about to do it.

Go back and look at the history of HBR. It started out as a "factory" class to entice hunters, plinkers, and other non-Benchrest types into the sport. It worked for a while, but it didn't last long. Instead of switching over to the conventional group-shooting Benchrest, it spawned a Class of its own. The rules for HBR are still evolving but as recently as 10 years ago you could find the vestiges of rules that were intended to keep it a "factory" class.

The interest in a new facory class to shoot along with the traditional Benchrest group shooters will never go away. But any new class created is doomed to repeat the cycle of HBR and shooters 25 years from now will be having the same old arguements.

JMHO

Ray

 

[R. G. Robinett]

what dick said.

the one comment i made was an attempt to make it a "normal" factory rifle...not a semi custiom single shot savage.
so i said establish a base line of pricing. not more than the cost of a known comdity...a rem 700 in 30/06, 270 ...or a varmit round. and then allow a few bucks over. price for the rifle, not the scope.
and yes a a started class...not what happened to the hunter class.

mike in co

Mike, I have in my [never nicotine stained] hands, a copy of a HUNTER CLASS match report (PA), sanctioned by the NBRSA, but NOT registered, dating back to 1967 - there were over 50 competitors . . .and not many factory rifles! HUNTER Class was never intended as a factory class - that is a myth. The people who participated in those formative events were custom rifle nuts - just like us - and the equipment list shows it! There are a few prominant names on those pages - some of them still involved in BR shootin'!

As for price limtis, etc. - HOW does the club go about enforcing THAT?
I have two friends, who began shootin in the Varmint Hunters Assn. ( balloon shoots - Pierre, SD) and, successfully, shot ALL of the classes: by a LARGE margin, their most EXPENSIVE rifles were put together, as Charles described above, but they were made-up of completely "factory" parts. They'd purchase a NEW 40X just to get a new barrel, complete with all the "factory scribbling"! Their fully custom rifles cost them less than they have invested in their "factory" stuff. How could that (how much I'm willing to spend) be policed - even if we were talking RemSavChester? I see a factory class as an equipment race of the worst sort.

I began in BR shooting factory rifles and did so until I could afford to semi-custom rigs, then to fully custom rifles . . but I LIKED the shooting and learned a LOT - "the hard way" - and NEVER finished dead last. The point is, those who want to shoot and compete will find a way. Looking back, I was the poster child for spending money twice - I now recommend that newcommers shoot what they have until they can afford to invest in a full-blown race rig . . . or, spend their money once! RG

 

[quandary]

Back in the days when I was tuning road racing motorcycles, we had what we called a "box-stock" class in various engine displacement increments. It was intended as an entry level class. We had a claiming rule; the winners motorcycle could be claimed for a rule specified amount by anyone who finished the race behind him. The idea was to discourage expensive attempts to cheat in ways that were difficult to detect. It didn't work. We couldn't get factory specs on anything and didn't have the wherewithal to tear down a significant number of bikes to put our own together. I tore down several engines for post race inspection and there were just too many ways to make subtle improvements that were virtually undetectable. So we stopped looking for them and just went after the obvious. The result was that the entry level wasn't any cheaper than the other classes. I don't recall that anyone actually claimed another's bike; we got rid of that rule when it looked as though things might come to blows on occasion.

I think the same thing would happen to a "factory" class in benchrest. Have a factory class at the local level, allow the match director to decide at his own discretion which guns fit the class. Some guy's varmint rifle, even though it might have a custom barrel, still looks like a hunting rifle. Have a rule that states; so many wins (or points) and the guy moves up to formal benchrest competition whether he wants to or not.

 

[Redrock]

Factory, now theres trouble

When setting up the postal this year we run a factory class, what I believe to be a true factory class meaning must be a repeater (gets rid of the single shot solid actions like cooper, rem 40x br, and so on. Rifle must be in the "spirit" of factory and everyone knows what that means, but leads to the mentality of what can I buy so I can whoop up on the poor sob that has a RemSavWin off the shelf .223 or 22-250.

So we put in a clause that it can't be a factory rig produced for the purpose of turnkey competition, like the upper end Savages or the Sake Trg (which is $4500.00 by the way but produced by a factory)

The Coopers are nice rigs (I know cause I own one) but considered by the Manufacturer to be Semi-Custom, yes they are produced in a Factory but not a factory gun at least for the purpose of the Postal (I will get hammered for this all over again, I can tell). Then you get, well MY range lets me shoot it in the factory class! Well, for our purposes, those that don't have a Cooper start chewing on me because they know that there RemSavWin will not shoot with the coopers (because they didn't get a one hole target with the gun when they bought it) so then they exclaim "Screw that, I'm not gonna shoot against them, I have no chance"....Just can't win for loosing when you put one of these things on

So we put them in a Custom class, which at that point the Cooper, 40x owners drop out because they have a As# ache that there not in the FACTORY class...

Factory, Fun Stuff.

 

[Cheechako]

RG

You need to go back to the very beginning of Hunter Class to find it's roots as a "factory" rifle class. It was pioneered by the Richmond CA Rod & Gun Club in the 1950s and 1960s and those guys were shooting their M70s and M700s in 243W, 244R, and 308W, at a single-bull target for score. I can't say if they approached NBRSA or if NBRSA approached them but the two eventually came together and some preliminary rules were established. That's where the 6mm or larger bore, 30-30 case capacity, 6-power scope, 10 pound weight, a functioning magazine, operative safety, 1 1/4" wide stock, etc rules started.

There were initially 3 sub-classes. Novice Hunter, Hunter, and Master Hunter so that just about any shooter could compete and have a chance of success. The very first targets were a single-bull. By 1965 +/- the 6-bull targets were introduced because groups were getting small enough to make scoring difficult. At the same time, rules were relaxed or re-written on things such as re-barrelling, re-stocking, and special triggers. At some point (I can't remember when) the 3 sub classes were combined into one but clubs were still encouraged to award trophies for pure factory rifles.

By the 1990s most of the rules had been modified but there was still a lot of confusion over such things as a functioning magazine, stock shapes, etc. I'm not sure that they have been completely clarified to this day.

Regardless, a "factory" class in Benchrest will always be cussed and discussed depending on your point of view. We'll probably still be talking about it when our one-world government takes away the last rifle in civilian hands.

Ray

 

[mike in co]

actually there is a way to limit factory to factory.
one: is to limit participation to 2 years...its an introduction class not anything else. regional only , no nationals.
two: if one really wants to minimize it as an equiptment race, simply make it a claiming event......if you win, your rifle may be purchased by any other competitor in that match for msrp.( you keep the scope base,and rings).

mike in co

 

[MRL]

Factory should remain at the Club level only! It can be a pain in the A### to keep everybody happy and no matter what you do there will be somebody hollering about somebody is cheating because they bought a better gun.

 

[Apollo]

I agree with MRL and Mr. Wright hit the nail on the head with his 2nd and 3rd sentences. I also was part of the e-mails/phone calls that Redrock received while setting up the postals. Factory class was a small pain in the butt setting up/getting the wording right for the postals. However, I am glad we have it. It has brought in 9(I think) shooters into the postal that wouldn't have been there before.
Also, when Francis B. was running the postal, the reason I got into it was they had a factory class. 2 years later - I own a VFS rig. That would not have happened if it wouldn't have been for me being able to compete in the factory class to start with.
With all that being typed, keep factory at the local/postal level. I think if someone is interested in shooting at a National level - then they will invest in the equipment.

Stanley

 

[Larry Elliott]

When I lived in Seattle we used to shoot a factory class that allowed only rebedding, lightening the trigger pull (no extra levers or aftermarket triggers), no single shots except for falling blocks or break opens, and a 20X max on scopes. It worked pretty well, everyone knew everyone else, good camaraderie, lots of friendly ribbing, and fun to shoot - usually.

That being said I don't know how that sort of match could be effectively policed on a national level. There'd always be someone who wanted to win no matter what it required, and would cheat to do it. Then there'd be protests and general nastiness. In LV, HV, and HBR if a rifle makes weight and has a legal stock and barrel it's pretty much legal so protests aren't a big problem. Most clubs don't have the finances to allow a referee to check rifles, and most shooters wouldn't want to hang around to have their rifles inspected thoroughly to ensure legality. It'd all be a major pain in the caboose I think.