Does this sound reasonable

[Mike S]

Hey guys,

I'm interested in builidng my own rifle. I'm not a gunsmith, don't own a lathe or anything, but I'm fine working with tools and building things. I'm not looking to build a competitive benchrest rifle. What I'm thinking about doing is buying something like a Savage Competition Action, a nice laminated benchrest style stock, a high quality already setup barrel, and a nice trigger and put it together myself. I'd like to end up with something that shoots better than any factory rifle that I could buy and cost a little less .... I'd be using it to fiddle around with hand loads shooting targets off a bench with flags, chrony, etc, at 100 and 200 yards. Still trying to figure what to build ..... 6PPC or 22BR or ????

Is that something that is doable .... I'm a decently intelligent guy, been doing some research/reading ..... nothing so far seems to be out of my reach OR am I overly simplying what it takes to accomplish what I'm looking to do.

Thanks for any advice .... Mike

 

[shevelin]

Mike,

This kind of project is the way that most gun guys get their feet wet in gunsmithing. I don't see any reason why you can't do this project OK - the most critical thing would be the barrel fitting/headspacing and that can be handled pretty well on a Savage with minimal tools. You will need to buy a few tools - Savage barrel nut wrench and possibly a barrel vise, but you might be able to improvise on the vise (assuming that you have a good bench vise and bench already). This could also be farmed out if you have any doubts about your abilities or tools. The stock work and bedding is a great beginning project - just read up on it. Trigger replacement is not too hard, but you need to make sure that the adjustments are safe, safe, safe under all conditions before using the rifle in the field. A 6mm BR or 22 BR would be a great choice for a casual target piece if you are not going into heavy competition right away.

Scott

Scott

 

[Mike S]

Thanks Scott ....

I figured I'd be buying tools and stuff along the way .... I love toys!!! I'll add them to my collection. Is my expectation that it will shoot noticably better than any factory rifle a reasonable one?

Mike

 

[lefty o]

with a modest investment in tools, a guy can rebarrel a savage no problem. other actions typically require you have more expensive tooling, and a lathe (or access to one).

 

[Charles E]

I'd like to end up with something that shoots better than any factory rifle that I could buy and cost a little less

That's where the rub comes in. There will be a few factory rifles likely more accurate than yours. The accuracy performance of multiple factory rifles can be plotted as a bell-shaped curve, and just shortening up the x axis by customizing them doesn't mean there aren't a few box-stock ones down there in the "real accurate" region.

And no matter what you do, it is a matter of getting a very good barrel. Those too will plot out on a bell-shaped curve; same result. The more barrels you have, the better your chances of getting a good one, and, sadly, a bad one.

What you could say about your project is you odds will be better, and if you keep at it, they keep improving -- esp. with more barrels.

Most of us have been down the "make a factory (something) better," and in the end, wound up spending more that if we bought a full benchrest rifle. But if all you really want is to say "I did it myself," have at it.

 

[markharp]

Don't do it !!!

Mike S,

Don't do it !! I did exactly that 3 years ago. Over the last two years it turned into a Benchrest rifle, a rail gun, another BR gun coming, jugs and jugs of powder, and thousands of dollars of stuff I don't need or even know how to use.

Mark

 

[Mike S]

Hey Charles,

Thanks for the reply .... good sanity check.

For what I am looking to build here I'm not even remotely looking to compete with the real benchrest rifles. I'm hoping that if I go for something like a Shilen "Select Match Grade" barrel that my chances of it being a barrel that is better than a barrel that is mass produced to factory tolerences/specifications is real good. I hope I'm not over estimating that .... am i?

Does anybody of any idea of what size groups I could expect (given a decent barrel) out of a Savage Competition Dual Port Action with a "Select Match Grade" Barrel (or similar) with a laminated stock with a Pillar and Bedded Action? (I hope that's the right bedding that I should be considering) at 100 yards and 200 yards .... I'm thinking about using a .473 Bolt Face action with chambering for 22BR or 6mmBR or 6PPC .....

If I'm all screwed up here just jump in .... all of this is based on reading and trying to do the right thing.

Mike

 

[Charles E]

Once again, it depends on where you want to go. You can buy a used BR rifle, with a "shot out" barrel that will be more accurate than most factory guns. I'm not going to guess at price, but there are rifles out there on Remington actions that are also ugly builds for under $1,000.

True story: From time to time, I shoot Factory Class at out club matches. One day, A guy showed up with a Savage (Factory) long-range target rifle. He smoked all of us other Factory rifles a 200 yards -- beat us by 5 points or more, which is a lot. Had he been shooting in the benchrest class, he'd have been dead last.

Things to think about: As far as I can tell, you can put a nut (a la Savage) on most any action -- you can sure put a shouldered barrel on a savage, and it's a matter of sauce and geese . . .

I think the "custom" Remingtons like the Predator, etc. have gone up a bit in price, but one of those is usually superior to a trued Remington. It just much easier to make a true action if you start out with that intent than it is to correct one later. Maybe you could find one used.

I'm not so much arguing against Savage as arguing that when you start with one, at some significant level, that's what you will wind up with.

* * *

Yes, your odds with a Shilen select will be far better than a Factory barrel. As long as you understand it's odds, and one or two really great barrels escape from the Savage Factory . . .

 

[Mike S]

Read all of my replies with a grain of salt cause I don't know too much about what I'm doing yet

Once again, it depends on where you want to go. You can buy a used BR rifle, with a "shot out" barrel that will be more accurate than most factory guns. I'm not going to guess at price, but there are rifles out there on Remington actions that are also ugly builds for under $1,000.

I actually thought about going this route ... liking the idea that I would have a true benchrest action to use as a foundation. I thought that in order for me to re-barrel it myself I would need a lathe. Again, remember that I don't know what I'm doing ... I thought that normally you would have to trim the shoulder away from the barrel little by little to get the right head space with the barrel tightened down ... that's if I had one already threaded ...... and that there would not be room to put a nut on the threading and have the barrel be able to thread in far enough.

Mike

I found a Gordy Gritter Video on Youtube .... guess you don't trim the shoulder to adjust headspace (I told you I didin't know what I was doing ) Looks like you actually bore the chamber deeper ....

 

[Charles E]

Mike, practically speaking, it might have to be a Savage if you want to do it yourself, and don't have a lathe.

What you are counting on is a pre-chambered, pre-threaded barrel, then controlling the headspace by how far you turn in the barrel, and locking it with the nut. While this could be done with a number of actions, buying the pre-threaded & chambered barrel might be difficult/expensive -- it wouldn't be a standard item. Other things have to work -- bolt to barrel clearance, etc., and while not particularly hard to make, say, a nut-bearing Remington, it would be odd, and a special setup.

Viewed one way, you are still buying the gunsmithing -- from the barrel maker. Viewed another, you've done it yourself. Your choice, enjoying it is the big thing.

 

[Mike S]

Charles E,

Here's how I'm looking at it and thinking might be a good way to go .......

Right now I don't want to jump in with both feet and buy a lathe let alone all the tooling that would go along with it ..... I also want to minimize my initial investment while still getting something that will be fun to fiddle with. I don't have any plans getting into any competitive shooting against anyone but myself. I have so many other hobbies that all I am looking for is another part time past time ..... not an obsession .... and I've been down the obsession road before and I know how time consuming (not to mention costly) that this can be.

I'm thinking that maybe what I should do is buy a Savage Factory Rifle .... in something like a 6 Norma BR ..... maybe a 12LRPV Dual Port or a Model 12 F-Class or Model 12 Benchrest .... again in 6 Norma BR. I'm seeing them around $1000 give or take a $100 .... shipping included.

That gives me something to play with for the spring/summer. From there I can also bed the factory stock, or replace it and then bed it .... and I always have the option of replacing the barrel ..... shilen makes "select match grade" savage drop ins in just about any chamber and profile ..... if I'm right the bolt that the 6 Norma BR uses is the same as what I would use for 22BR or 6PPC.

I have a Nightforce 12-42 Bencrest scope with a rail and mounts that I can throw onto it .... all I would need is dies, brass, primers, powder and bullets. I even have all the rests I need (Farley and Fulghum) for the front and a couple of edgewoods for the rear plus flags and wind indicators and a chronograph.

If it turns out that I want to do more I can always do that as part 2 .....

The purpose of this one is really just to experiment with hand loading and flag reading while shooting at 100 AND 200 yards. Probably either by myself or with a friend that is interested in playing with the same.

Mike

 

[Mike S]

I decided to look around a little at prices

Savage Precision Target Action ... $490
Sharp Shooter Supply Laminate Stock ... $324
Shilen Select Match Grade Savage Drop in Barrel .... $449
Competition Trigger .... around $100
Competition Recoil Lug ... $30
Misc .... lets say another $100
------------------------------------------------
Total = $1,493.00

I tell ya for the $400 or so difference it would seem that I would end up with a better shooting rifle with this build ... unless of course I screwed the pooch but the stuff that I would be doing doesn't really seem like rocket science. Just basic hand tool skill and I'd need to be fussy and precise ... I can do that

decisions decsions .... Mike

 

[.25shooter]

Yes you would end up with a better rifle this route than just buying a new Savage but all it would ever be is just another Savage. For $1500 you could buy a used benchrest rifle, even if it wasnt state of the art, that could be capable of WINNING matches where this Savage never would be.
I know you said you didnt plan on compeating in a match, but if one is interested in accuracy more of it will always be a plus. Like they say "if some is good then more is better"
My advice is to buy a used benchrest rifle on a custom action (Panda, Hall etc) For about $1500 you could get one and if you desided later this wasnt for you and you deside to get out of it you can recover most of your investment by selling it again.

 

[jo191145]

Mike GO FOR IT!!!

You have to start somewhere. Everyone did.
Seems you want to tinker as much as shoot. I can understand that.
Accuracy can be bought (to a point) but theres a lot to be said for building it yourself.

I've built a few Savs in my day. Put forth a little effort and they'll agg .25 moa. Perhaps better.
Thats not winning accuracy but its still damn fun.
Buying a used/new full blown custom rifle and put no effort into it, you'll still win NOTHING.


I would suggest a 6BR 1/14 twist tube. 21" -22" is all you need for 100-300yds
The barrel is the heart of the rifle IMO.
Get a bad one and I don't care what else you have behind it. It won't shoot well.

Some advice:
Forget the SSS stocks.
Damn fine stocks but availability is miserable to be genourous.
You might be hung up 2 yrs waiting for one no matter what you hear on the phone.
Try Joel Russo. No expierience myself but its gotta be better than SSS.

Shilens not bad. Benchmark is fast, cheaper and better. I would look there first.
Very good folks to deal with. Every barrel they produce is considered "custom" ,within limits of course.
They don't charge extra for something a little different than the norm. SSHHHH.
Pac-Nor has had its ups and downs but "mine" is simply awesome. 6BR 1/14 Barrel bought used, 3rd owner, unknown rd count, cheap.
Most accurate gun I own. Better than the "full blown custom" 6PPC with less fuss. YMMV
A little lucky on that one.

Rifle Basix II is about the best trigger you can get in a Sav. Unless you spring for an Evo 2 from SSS (which I have)
The RB II adjusts safely to 7ozs. Rated to 4 ozs but thats not gonna happen.
Not a Jewel but a great improvement over the non comp trigger.
What did you have in mind?

FWIW Shilen now makes a custom action that takes the best features of a Savage and a Remington and puts it all in one package.
A very good place to start I would imagine.

I'll freely admit I don't put forth enough effort to win the SuperShoot. My choice.
Local events when accuracy counts with less effort My Sav built 6BR gets the nod over my custom 6PPC.
Same load, all year, that Sav brings home the wood. Or cheap plastic trophies=)

Theres no doubt a full blown custom can outshoot a garge built Savage.
But look at all the education you'll miss. Not to mention pride in your own build.
That education comes in quite handy if you decide to proceed further.
Theres more to shooting accurately than "who built it" for the beginner.

If you believe anything built on a Sav action is only capable of 1.00-.5 -.25 moa you'll stop when you get there.
If you think the gun should agg as good or close too as its best group ever you'll keep trying.
I've shot more 5rd groups that begin with .0 in several factory 204R barrels than my PPC or BR.
The effort was put forth, barrels were burned learning lessons, and NO they won't agg like that.
But it was fun trying and the lessons learned have served me well. JMO's

 

[williev18]

here is just some food for thought

here is one garage built savage that shoots very well, I couldnt afford to have a full blown custom built, so i opted to do a semi custom on a savage target action. The action is a savage left bolt right port, the barrel is a Hart, 24", 30br, in a 1-17 twist. The stock is a mcmillan edge HBR, self bedded. Since this pic was taken i have also installed a harrels precision tuner. Granted i dont plan on setting any world records with it, but i have taken home some wood with it agenst the true bench rest guns. You may also notince the front rest was also home made with about 35 dollars worth of materials.
i have also just finished assembling another home built savage where i took and old savage model 16, and rebarreld it to 260 rem, and replaced the stock with a aluminum bedded synthetic. Im still wating for the snow to leave northern vermont to start testing but it should be alot of fun to shoot.i enjoy competing, and with a meeger budget, i have to do what i can to keep costs down, so i can continue to shoot. i enjoyed building them almost as much as i like shooting them.so from one tinkerer to another build one for yourself, have fun and enjoy. you probably wont set the world on fire, but what you do accomplish you can take full credit for.

 

[tiny68]

Go after it

I did what you are thinking. This is my Target Action that with T&T by Fred at SSS, a SSS stock, and a Shilen 30BR barrel (pre-fit by Shilen). I will use this same gun for F-Class this year and have many barrels (223, 6BRs, 308). I sent it back to Fred last year and had his Evolution trigger installed. I have shot several club matches and did ok in score. I have shot a couple of 249s with up to 14X, but a 250 eluted me. Group is a different story.... I have shot a few 2s and a lot of 3s but manage to pull a 6 or 7 on each match to ensure I am at the bottom of list. Mostly driver I think. I have a lot to learn on bag set-up and those pesky wind flags.

Yes you can have fun and learn a lot. If I though point blank BR was all I was interested in, I would have gone a used gun to start with. Is is not. I want to sample F/Class and longer range BR. I see not trophies for me any time soon.

However, after playing with it a couple of years, I do know I want a full blown BR gun. I recently contacted a BR gunsmith about doing a build. I am looking at stocks at matches and trying to figure the action.

Nothing wrong with starting with that Savage. You will soon reach a point however when you skills exceeds the capabilities of the Savage. If you only shoot once or twice a month and make 2-3 matches a year, it might last you several year (me). If you go head over heels then you might out grow it in a year. Great thing about your Savage is that you can sell off your components and recover 60-80% of your investment.

Luck, Tim

 

[Johnse]

Mike,
Don't post much but needed to get in on this. I have 3 PPC's. Two on custom actions and one built on a Savage single shot. Those that say they aren't competitive have never owned/shot one. Mine is built on a bench rest Rayhill stock, Shilen match grade barrel, Sav2 trigger with no barrel nut. Some of the best groups( one being an .097 ) was shot with the Savage. I have also shot this rifle in score matches locally and placed with it several times. This is up against the custom actions. Build that bad boy and go beat some of the boys with the custom rigs. Sure makes me feel good when this happens! Check out Northland Shooters Supply, great guy with the best prices. By the way I shoot the model 12 6BR in the factory varmints class and went undefeated this last summer. I used to shoot a Cooper M-4 in this class it cannot compete with the Savage.

 

[roninflag]

I decided to look around a little at prices

Savage Precision Target Action ... $490
Sharp Shooter Supply Laminate Stock ... $324
Shilen Select Match Grade Savage Drop in Barrel .... $449
Competition Trigger .... around $100
Competition Recoil Lug ... $30
Misc .... lets say another $100
------------------------------------------------
Total = $1,493.00

I tell ya for the $400 or so difference it would seem that I would end up with a better shooting rifle with this build ... unless of course I screwed the pooch but the stuff that I would be doing doesn't really seem like rocket science. Just basic hand tool skill and I'd need to be fussy and precise ... I can do that

decisions decsions .... Mike

MIKE- REM 700 action 300 ; stock 350; krieger barrel 300 ; chambered and threaded 150; shilen trigger 100( jewell 200). total = 1200

 

[caroby]

Charles E,

Here's how I'm looking at it and thinking might be a good way to go .......

Right now I don't want to jump in with both feet and buy a lathe let alone all the tooling that would go along with it ..... I also want to minimize my initial investment while still getting something that will be fun to fiddle with. I don't have any plans getting into any competitive shooting against anyone but myself. I have so many other hobbies that all I am looking for is another part time past time ..... not an obsession .... and I've been down the obsession road before and I know how time consuming (not to mention costly) that this can be.

I'm thinking that maybe what I should do is buy a Savage Factory Rifle .... in something like a 6 Norma BR ..... maybe a 12LRPV Dual Port or a Model 12 F-Class or Model 12 Benchrest .... again in 6 Norma BR. I'm seeing them around $1000 give or take a $100 .... shipping included.

That gives me something to play with for the spring/summer. From there I can also bed the factory stock, or replace it and then bed it .... and I always have the option of replacing the barrel ..... shilen makes "select match grade" savage drop ins in just about any chamber and profile ..... if I'm right the bolt that the 6 Norma BR uses is the same as what I would use for 22BR or 6PPC.

I have a Nightforce 12-42 Bencrest scope with a rail and mounts that I can throw onto it .... all I would need is dies, brass, primers, powder and bullets. I even have all the rests I need (Farley and Fulghum) for the front and a couple of edgewoods for the rear plus flags and wind indicators and a chronograph.

If it turns out that I want to do more I can always do that as part 2 .....

The purpose of this one is really just to experiment with hand loading and flag reading while shooting at 100 AND 200 yards. Probably either by myself or with a friend that is interested in playing with the same.

Mike

Mike, I believe you are going about it just right........ The factory barrel may very well shoot...
But once you get a high end barrel on it..... Hello...!

Little bedding, trigger, load development and watch that wind......... NO reason you can't expect a SOLID < .300 capable Savage........ Seen alot of em in the sub .500 range but I believe your plan is on track to be capable of sub .300...

Have fun......... Accuracy is VERY addictive so get ready...!

cale

 

[frwillia]

here is one garage built savage that shoots very well, I couldnt afford to have a full blown custom built, so i opted to do a semi custom on a savage target action. The action is a savage left bolt right port, the barrel is a Hart, 24", 30br, in a 1-17 twist. The stock is a mcmillan edge HBR, self bedded. Since this pic was taken i have also installed a harrels precision tuner.

Well done including the choice of cartridge. From what I've read, a .30BR will last a long time.

I have the same action and a 1:8 twist Shilen I plan to put on it chambered in 6BR. Not sure when I'll do that. But it's on the list.

Fitch