Bob Brushingham
Member
With the declining attendance I think reciprocity would help.
Brush
Brush
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Declining attendance
- Thread starter Bob Brushingham
- Start date
I don't think that's a word.
HuskerP7M8
Member
I'm fairly certain he means "Reciprocity" and is suggesting that "Reciprocity" between shooting organizations without having to be a member would probably increase attendance.
If I'm correct, I'm of the opinion it would, but whether it's doable is an entirely different matter.
Landy
If I'm correct, I'm of the opinion it would, but whether it's doable is an entirely different matter.
Landy
James Kelbly
Member
Bob
Reciprocity with which four organizations now. NBRSA, IBS, Freedom Benchrest or GBA. That is the problem today is there is not just two organizations now. Benchrest has shrunk in competitors, and we now have four or more organizations catering to benchrest in the USA. Unfortunately, benchrest has seen the best times leave us. I do not think you will ever see the attendance we saw from the middle 70's to about 2005. Prices for everything involving shooting has taken a toll on benchrest as other disciplines. Also, I do not see the atmosphere short range benchrest had from the 60's to 2000. Families used to attend, now it is only retired or close to retirement shooters and I do not see families coming back to short range benchrest. It really is sad, as I grew up in short range benchrest and as a kid, I always looked forward to seeing the other kids at the benchrest matches. It is rare to see wives let alone any children at a short-range benchrest match today. Go to a Nationals, regional or even the Super Shoot today and by sunset it is a ghost town at the range. It used to be a party with the shooters sitting around enjoying each other's company. Without that atmosphere anymore it is just the truly serious competitor that goes to the matches. The sport has lost its family friendly atmosphere, and the average shooter cannot afford the money and loss of family time by attending competitions. I hear this all the time on why shooters do not travel to matches.
Locally here at Chippewa Rifle Club we are seeing some younger shooters starting to shoot the club matches Chippewa has (not married or if married no children). Several of them have told me they want to start shooting the regional matches in future. They also state that costs and time are hard to come by to travel to these matches. I am taking my 9-year-old grandson this Saturday to the match to see if he is interested in competing there next year. I am hoping he does as the local matches start at 9am and we are done by noon and back home to do the many things' kids have to do today that were not available when I was 9 years old. That is also why the sport is not having younger families today as the parents are living their lives thru their children.
My opinion on the future of benchrest is it will stay the way it is today with little to no growth in shooter numbers. It will remain an older age sport with benchrest only gaining older shooters who will come from other shooting discipline's since they can no longer do the tactical type shooting or F-Class laying on the ground and can no longer do these types of shooting and need to be at a bench with high power scopes due to their age and physical issues.
I feel very blessed to have lived thru what I call the golden age of short range benchrest, some of my best memories involve benchrest and I miss those days. Unfortunately, I am worried that current short-range benchrest clubs holding registered matches will not be able to afford to hold these matches due to not being able to make any money with the attendance we have now at registered matches.
Do I think reciprocity would help the sport, probably not enough to help the clubs. I am all for reciprocity that is why the Super Shoot was not registered when reciprocity ended between IBS and NBRSA when Kelbly's ran it. There are too many different organizations when you speak of the World coming to shoot your match, which one do you promote as a match organizer and not upset other organizations and their members.
Just my opinion on the current state of short range benchrest after 62 years of being in this sport as a kid of a competitor, competitor, range operator, NBRSA and IBS member, sponsor, and business. Kelbly's would not be here today if it was not for short-range benchrest and my father's addiction to it.
Jim
Reciprocity with which four organizations now. NBRSA, IBS, Freedom Benchrest or GBA. That is the problem today is there is not just two organizations now. Benchrest has shrunk in competitors, and we now have four or more organizations catering to benchrest in the USA. Unfortunately, benchrest has seen the best times leave us. I do not think you will ever see the attendance we saw from the middle 70's to about 2005. Prices for everything involving shooting has taken a toll on benchrest as other disciplines. Also, I do not see the atmosphere short range benchrest had from the 60's to 2000. Families used to attend, now it is only retired or close to retirement shooters and I do not see families coming back to short range benchrest. It really is sad, as I grew up in short range benchrest and as a kid, I always looked forward to seeing the other kids at the benchrest matches. It is rare to see wives let alone any children at a short-range benchrest match today. Go to a Nationals, regional or even the Super Shoot today and by sunset it is a ghost town at the range. It used to be a party with the shooters sitting around enjoying each other's company. Without that atmosphere anymore it is just the truly serious competitor that goes to the matches. The sport has lost its family friendly atmosphere, and the average shooter cannot afford the money and loss of family time by attending competitions. I hear this all the time on why shooters do not travel to matches.
Locally here at Chippewa Rifle Club we are seeing some younger shooters starting to shoot the club matches Chippewa has (not married or if married no children). Several of them have told me they want to start shooting the regional matches in future. They also state that costs and time are hard to come by to travel to these matches. I am taking my 9-year-old grandson this Saturday to the match to see if he is interested in competing there next year. I am hoping he does as the local matches start at 9am and we are done by noon and back home to do the many things' kids have to do today that were not available when I was 9 years old. That is also why the sport is not having younger families today as the parents are living their lives thru their children.
My opinion on the future of benchrest is it will stay the way it is today with little to no growth in shooter numbers. It will remain an older age sport with benchrest only gaining older shooters who will come from other shooting discipline's since they can no longer do the tactical type shooting or F-Class laying on the ground and can no longer do these types of shooting and need to be at a bench with high power scopes due to their age and physical issues.
I feel very blessed to have lived thru what I call the golden age of short range benchrest, some of my best memories involve benchrest and I miss those days. Unfortunately, I am worried that current short-range benchrest clubs holding registered matches will not be able to afford to hold these matches due to not being able to make any money with the attendance we have now at registered matches.
Do I think reciprocity would help the sport, probably not enough to help the clubs. I am all for reciprocity that is why the Super Shoot was not registered when reciprocity ended between IBS and NBRSA when Kelbly's ran it. There are too many different organizations when you speak of the World coming to shoot your match, which one do you promote as a match organizer and not upset other organizations and their members.
Just my opinion on the current state of short range benchrest after 62 years of being in this sport as a kid of a competitor, competitor, range operator, NBRSA and IBS member, sponsor, and business. Kelbly's would not be here today if it was not for short-range benchrest and my father's addiction to it.
Jim
Jerry W
Jerry Wick
Regarding reciprocity, compared to the cost of rifles and equipment, barrels, reloading components, travel, lodging, etc., I think the multiple membership fees are such a minimal amount that it doesn't even make a difference if you want to shoot multiple organizations events. I guess you could think of it as a small donation to help keep the sport going.
That said, I can't help but wonder if Benchrest wouldn't be stronger if we were all under one unified organization. Realistically though, I know that just isn't possible.
That said, I can't help but wonder if Benchrest wouldn't be stronger if we were all under one unified organization. Realistically though, I know that just isn't possible.
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Facts and I can't agree more with the lack of family involvement is hurting the sport.
Todd
Hunter
Throwin' Up Spray
Jim, regarding the above, maybe match attendance will rebound — don't know when, though. Here's why I say that, apparently sometime around the 60s the atmosphere became "family-friendly," and sometime around the mid-70s the match attendance increased. If those assumptions are valid, I wonder why those two factors cannot happen again. There must have been a growth spurt in the 60s - 70s; thus, maybe there's hope for another.
.
As for "Prices for everything involving shooting has taken a toll," I wonder if the dramatic increase in wages since, say 1970, has largely offset shooting-related price increases. About what does a newly-put-together BR rifle cost today, compared to sometime in the past?
GeneT
Active member
If I may interject, as someone who has not yet shot a BR match, the price is definitely part of it.
You can look at the price of a competitive rifle, but that usually doesn't include the scope, nor the rest. Then there's the loading gear, the oddball components, and custom bullets... From the outside looking in there's a large layout.
That said, having been a competitive shooter in other disciplines for a few decades the cost and availability of components is a big deal. BR is not where you show up with your factory '700 (especially since they all suck nowadays) and a box of Remington whatever to shoot a match.
And that's perhaps the first thing that's missing: a "factory" class for newbies to come shoot what they bought, with little to no modification. Yep, that'll mean a lot more .30's on the line, though maybe today 6.5's... And yes, I know how hard it is to try to create, and enforce a "factory" class.
It's also inescapably noticeable that many BR matches (at least here and in my former home in Oregon) occur on workdays, making it difficult for all but the retired to attend. Want more families? Better set things up for the weekends.
Lastly, and I'm not sure what you do about it, there's a decline in shooting rags (magazines). The ones that exist today are largely just 100 pages of ads for the latest mediocrity (or worse) being produced by the most novel vendor. I can't think of a single one that caters to the educated shooter.
Just spitballin' - my $0.02, which ain't worth what it was before inflation...
GsT
You can look at the price of a competitive rifle, but that usually doesn't include the scope, nor the rest. Then there's the loading gear, the oddball components, and custom bullets... From the outside looking in there's a large layout.
That said, having been a competitive shooter in other disciplines for a few decades the cost and availability of components is a big deal. BR is not where you show up with your factory '700 (especially since they all suck nowadays) and a box of Remington whatever to shoot a match.
And that's perhaps the first thing that's missing: a "factory" class for newbies to come shoot what they bought, with little to no modification. Yep, that'll mean a lot more .30's on the line, though maybe today 6.5's... And yes, I know how hard it is to try to create, and enforce a "factory" class.
It's also inescapably noticeable that many BR matches (at least here and in my former home in Oregon) occur on workdays, making it difficult for all but the retired to attend. Want more families? Better set things up for the weekends.
Lastly, and I'm not sure what you do about it, there's a decline in shooting rags (magazines). The ones that exist today are largely just 100 pages of ads for the latest mediocrity (or worse) being produced by the most novel vendor. I can't think of a single one that caters to the educated shooter.
Just spitballin' - my $0.02, which ain't worth what it was before inflation...
GsT
James Kelbly
Member
I do not think the price of the rifle is a problem. The cost to attend a match (not entry fees) is the problem with shooters attending. Hotel costs, food costs and fuel. The average shooter that is not as serious as the top shooter does not attend matches that are farther away from home as they did in past due to the costs.
As far as the families getting involved, today the young families as I said are living life thru their future professional hall of famers in sports (their kids). The families that would be involved in shooting are putting shooting on the side burner till kids are out of the house which does not get kids involved in shooting and they end up with other hobbies when they become adults. They have at least six days a week now a days that their kids have to be at some sort of sporting event, and it seems it is 365 days a year. When we were kids, sports were only during school year. So that takes away from young families to get involved with shooting. Even if the families had time to shoot, now they have to afford the camper, a truck to pull it and then put gas into that 7 -10 mpg truck when pulling a camper. When a weekend shoot costs you 500.00 it gets difficult for a young family to afford competing regional and nationally, plus all the things they have to afford for the kids. I think that is why local matches are doing better than in past. One day matches close to home only cost you maybe 50.00. Benchrest is one of a few shooting sports that the competitors are staying at the range in a higher percentage than other shooting sports and an average family definitely cannot afford to stay in hotel and eat out as well.
Hunter, I hope you are right about things could change and families were to get involved in benchrest, but I just do not see it in what's left in my lifetime.
GeneT, factory class should be dealt with at the local nonregistered club matches in my opinion. This is where you can get more shooters involved at less cost to shooter and the new shooter can get better help from the older shooters. Chippewa Rifle Club has been catering to younger shooters and the seasoned shooters have been stepping up and helping the new younger shooters and Chippewa has been seeing larger attendance at their club matches due to this. The mentoring program NBRSA now has in place now, I believe has helped get more new shooters involved and that is what we need. If the new shooter decides they are going to start traveling from local range, they are most likely to have the equipment to compete with the seasoned shooters that go to registered matches.
Jim
As far as the families getting involved, today the young families as I said are living life thru their future professional hall of famers in sports (their kids). The families that would be involved in shooting are putting shooting on the side burner till kids are out of the house which does not get kids involved in shooting and they end up with other hobbies when they become adults. They have at least six days a week now a days that their kids have to be at some sort of sporting event, and it seems it is 365 days a year. When we were kids, sports were only during school year. So that takes away from young families to get involved with shooting. Even if the families had time to shoot, now they have to afford the camper, a truck to pull it and then put gas into that 7 -10 mpg truck when pulling a camper. When a weekend shoot costs you 500.00 it gets difficult for a young family to afford competing regional and nationally, plus all the things they have to afford for the kids. I think that is why local matches are doing better than in past. One day matches close to home only cost you maybe 50.00. Benchrest is one of a few shooting sports that the competitors are staying at the range in a higher percentage than other shooting sports and an average family definitely cannot afford to stay in hotel and eat out as well.
Hunter, I hope you are right about things could change and families were to get involved in benchrest, but I just do not see it in what's left in my lifetime.
GeneT, factory class should be dealt with at the local nonregistered club matches in my opinion. This is where you can get more shooters involved at less cost to shooter and the new shooter can get better help from the older shooters. Chippewa Rifle Club has been catering to younger shooters and the seasoned shooters have been stepping up and helping the new younger shooters and Chippewa has been seeing larger attendance at their club matches due to this. The mentoring program NBRSA now has in place now, I believe has helped get more new shooters involved and that is what we need. If the new shooter decides they are going to start traveling from local range, they are most likely to have the equipment to compete with the seasoned shooters that go to registered matches.
Jim
Hunter
Throwin' Up Spray
My solution to that obstacle is to not worry about being competitive; just enjoy shooting — and wondering what caused the bullet to go where it did.
adamsgt
Jerry Adams
Well, benchrest is a winner take all type of competition. I've only been shooting it for 15 years or so but other shooting disciplines I've been in usually have some sort of class structure. I'm sure that classes have been debated and rejected many times over the years. When you look at the final match results you always see the same names up in the top. That doesn't bother me because I just like the shooting, but it doesn't lend itself to keeping participants who aren't near as good as the top shooters.
No classes. Do the work to reap the rewards.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
I see retirees entering the Benchrest Sports. Many of them can afford the equipment and have the extendible income to buy the things necessary. Unfortunately, prices will never roll back to yesteryear so one must fit in as many matches as they can.
We are fortunate here in Maine in that we have 3 IBS Score clubs that offer a summer's worth of shooting for those who do not want to or can't afford the travel costs. Inflation has taken a pretty big bight out of our "Fixed Incomes" and the "Nursing Home Money " Is flagging, to some degree. I have been out of the work force for16 years so know now what the "Fixed Income" thing is all about.
We are fortunate here in Maine in that we have 3 IBS Score clubs that offer a summer's worth of shooting for those who do not want to or can't afford the travel costs. Inflation has taken a pretty big bight out of our "Fixed Incomes" and the "Nursing Home Money " Is flagging, to some degree. I have been out of the work force for16 years so know now what the "Fixed Income" thing is all about.
Lee Hachigian
Active member
Last year, I did an in-depth review of competitve short-range Benchrest cost comparing the year 2000 (when I started) to 2023. The data indicates that equipment cost is not a major issue in preventing an individual from entering the sport of short-range benchrest. These costs appear to not have increased at the same rate as inflation (74.7%). My data indicates that the total cost to “get into the sport” has increased 72.8% since the year 2000. The largest cost increase (by percentage) is in Bench Equipment, primarily due to technology changes in the design and functionality of the front rest. The front rests used by most competitors today, are the Joy-Stick style, which cost 2-3 times higher than the cost of old cast iron pedestal with a sliding screw activated windage top. Additionally, the combined cost for powder, primers and bullets have more than doubled.
Individuals can reduce their capital outlay, if they so desire, by purchasing used rifles and equipment. However, affordability (real wages) by the average individual is nearly half what it was in year 2000 based on buying power. Therefore, every dollar that must be spent to get into this sport is competing with other life-style needs to a greater extent than it had in the past, i.e., “I need to spend my money here, rather than in there (Benchrest)”. Lastly, I believe the greatest factor impacting attendance at matches is travel and lodging costs in addition to ongoing powder, primers and barrel needs have increased higher than the inflation rate during this period. Existing shooters on fixed incomes must overcome these price increases to justify their participation at national championships and other nationwide matches.
Here is some of my summary data:
Total Cost Summary:
Typical 2-Gun Weekend Match Cost:
Disclaimer
As a retired Chemical Engineer, I can say with a level of confidence that my memory of Economics 101 maybe skewed. My conclusions are, as stated, mine. I’m sure there are many others that have theories that can equally entertain discussion.
Individuals can reduce their capital outlay, if they so desire, by purchasing used rifles and equipment. However, affordability (real wages) by the average individual is nearly half what it was in year 2000 based on buying power. Therefore, every dollar that must be spent to get into this sport is competing with other life-style needs to a greater extent than it had in the past, i.e., “I need to spend my money here, rather than in there (Benchrest)”. Lastly, I believe the greatest factor impacting attendance at matches is travel and lodging costs in addition to ongoing powder, primers and barrel needs have increased higher than the inflation rate during this period. Existing shooters on fixed incomes must overcome these price increases to justify their participation at national championships and other nationwide matches.
Here is some of my summary data:
Total Cost Summary:
| Item | August 2000 - Cost $$ | April 2023 - Cost $$ | Difference |
| Table 1: LV Rifle | $3,700 | $6,350 | (72% increase) |
| Table 2: Bench Equipment | $490 | $1,055 | (115% increase) |
| Table 3: Brass Prep & Reloading | $1,200 | $1,795 | (46% increase) |
| Table 4: Range Equipment | $735 | $1390 | (89% increase) |
| Grand Total | $6,125 | $10,590 | (72.8% increase) |
Typical 2-Gun Weekend Match Cost:
| Item | August 2000 - Cost $$ | April 2023 - Cost $$ | Difference |
| Registration for a 2-Gun Match (NBRSA) | 60 | 100 | (66% increase) |
| Hotel Cost, 2-Nights | 100 | 200 | (100% increase) |
| Travel Fuel Cost | 1.50 per gallon | 3.50 per gallon | (133% increase) |
| Total | $160 + Fuel | $300 + Fuel | (87% increase), excluding Fuel Cost |
Disclaimer
As a retired Chemical Engineer, I can say with a level of confidence that my memory of Economics 101 maybe skewed. My conclusions are, as stated, mine. I’m sure there are many others that have theories that can equally entertain discussion.