bullet design

G

Greg Fowl

Guest
Anyone know of a good book on this subject? I have Hatchers Notebook plus a dozen reloading manuals that cover the subject in the intro but not in depth. I know a lot of trade secrets exist but wonder if anyone has a reccommendation. Thanks and shoot while you still can. V/R Greg
 
Don.

I tried that website on bullet design and my server could not find it. Check you info please.
 
Charles, Charles and John,
Is it just the 'bullet design' link that's broken, or can't you even get to the home page? Please try the link again and let me know what you get. This is the first time I've heard of trouble with the site.

In the mean time, the entire 'bullet design' page is just text, so I've copied and pasted it here:




General Notes on Bullet Design

What bullets end up being is truly a compromise between aerodynamics, manufacturing, materials, interior ballistic considerations (minimizing in-bore yaw), etc.

As an air-to-air missile design engineer, I am most familiar with the aerodynamic design considerations of supersonic flight as opposed to the manufacturing. The major topics I’m going to address include:

1. What compromises are chosen and why for different bullet applications.

2. Comment on the difference between tangent/secant ogive noses from an aerodynamic design point of view.

3. Address some statements about boat-tail design that are commonly misunderstood.

First

What drives bullet design compromises?

The key driver behind most of the compromises in bullet design is the intended application of the bullet. For our purposes, the application of BR bullets can be broken up into two basic categories: short range and long range.

Match quality short range BR bullets all pretty much look alike, no matter what caliber, it’s the same basic configuration: flat base, short shank, and moderate length nose. Likewise for long range BR bullets: boat-tail, long shank, and a long nose. So why does the ‘short range class’ look so different from the ‘long range class’?

The basic reason is because the short range bullets are concerned only with hair splitting precision and consistency. The long range bullets have to compromise these qualities a little bit because of the added demand that the projectiles also have more ballistic efficiency.

For example, why don’t winning short range BR bullets use a boat-tail? Answer: because it’s easier to make flat base bullets more precisely. There are fewer steps and less variables with flat bases. Also, slower twists are required to stabilize shorter, flat base bullets. Slower twist means less dispersion due to CG offset and in-bore yaw. You see, in the short range BR game, it’s all about minimizing dispersion.

A long range BR bullet design also has to minimize dispersion. However, long range bullets have more of a need to minimize effects due to atmospheric variations as well. This is accomplished with the VLD design. The VLD design potentially compromises inherent precision by having a boat-tail and a long secant ogive nose which: requires more steps to manufacture, has potential for inconsistency, and requires a higher twist to stabilize. Faster twist rates can exacerbate CG and in-bore yaw effects induced dispersion. BUT it’s worth the compromise for long range bullets because the VLD design minimizes shot to shot atmospheric variations that are more critical than all of the other considerations at long range.

So to wrap up the first point, the compromises that we’re all aware of are driven by the range at which the projectiles are designed to be fired from.

Second

On tangent vs secant ogive nose design:

The definition and geometric description of tangent and secant ogive noses is explained here:

(http://www.geocities.com/rocketguy_101/ogive/OgiveNoseCones.htm)

I’ll try to address the two types of ogives in terms of ‘optimal aerodynamics’.

For a given length nose, there is an infinite number of geometries to go from the meplat diameter, to the full caliber diameter. Two well known geometries are the tangent and secant ogive. Others are the cone, Sears-Haack, ¾ power law, and the paraboloid. The efficiency of the ogive design is judged by how much energy is required to ‘shock’ the air into a compression wave. In other words, the nose needs to make way for a cross section of 1 caliber in diameter to move thru the air at supersonic speed. The efficiency of the nose design depends on how ‘gently’ the nose parts the air. The less energy required to ‘shock’ the air, the less ‘wave’ drag the nose has.

At low supersonic speeds, the optimal ogive shape is a curved shape, approximating a short radius, tangent ogive. As Mach number increases, the optimal ogive begins to look more like a cone with straight edges leading to a sharp juncture with the bullet shank, ie, more like a secant ogive with a long radius.

Using mathematical techniques, ‘optimal’ ogive shapes have been designed that are neither tangent or secant. The problem with these ‘optimal’ designs is that they are only ‘optimal’ for one Mach number. That’s because the ‘optimality’ is based on the geometry of the shock cone, which changes with projectile velocity. The best the bullet designer can hope for is to go with the nose design that’s optimal for the average velocity of the bullet.

One more thing on ogive design: The value of designing a throat lead angle to match an ogive depends on how fast the cartridge will erode the lands.

Third

On boat-tail design:

Some people believe that “Boat-tails of any design should only be of any use at the transonic stage in the bullets trajectory”.

This statement is simply not true. The boat-tail design is effective at reducing drag in all speed regimes. There is much to say about the theory involved here (including why there’s dimples on golf balls), but more convincing evidence is available. Supersonic vehicles of all kinds from fighter jets to missiles to long range BR bullets are all designed with a reduced diameter after-body.

Bob McCoy’s book entitled “Modern Exterior Ballistics” is kind of like the modern bible of ballistics. Bob was a ballistics engineer at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland for several decades. In Chapter 4 of his book titled: Notes on Aerodynamic Drag, he shows a lot of experimental data on the subject of drag. To summarize the section on boat-tails… According to all the experiments, a boat-tail angle of between 6 and 8 degrees is optimal for reducing base drag at supersonic speeds. Drag is continuously reduced as boat-tail length grows, indefinitely. The length of the boat-tail is practically limited by stability concerns.

We typically see about 0.8 caliber boat-tail lengths on well balanced designs. A projectile having a 7 degree, 0.8 caliber long boat-tail will decrease drag between 10-15%. The design is not very sensitive to the caliber of the projectile.

I looked into the effects of rebated boat-tails a while ago and found pretty much what I expected. There’s no discernable difference between rebated and conventional boat-tails, in terms of drag reduction. I spoke to a bullet smith at a major bullet company who told me about their past experiments with the rebated boat-tail. He said the comparison between regular and rebated boat-tail bullets was a wash. It’s no surprise because of the relatively minor rebate used.
 
The site works fine if you do not include Don in the web address.

Thanks to all of you.

Charlie
 
Hi Brian,

What we have here is a failure to communicate. What we "me toos" were trying to say was that the link worked fine (as Don had just reported), not that we had trouble.
 
Good call Charles,
Thanks for clarifying.
I wish Al Gore would have made the internet easier :(
 
Moore four

Worked for me just as posted, first time. I liked the link so much I made it one of my favorites. Thank you Don for giving us the link up, and THANK YOU BRIAN for sharing your knowledge with others!!!!! Well now the moore I know the less I understand?

THANKS TO ALL WHO SHARE!!


STEVE MOORE
 
Attn: Bryan

Hello Bryan,
I got a question for you, if you’d be good enough to answer

You made this statement:
“I looked into the effects of rebated boat-tails a while ago and found pretty much what I expected. There’s no discernable difference between rebated and conventional boat-tails, in terms of drag reduction. I spoke to a bullet smith at a major bullet company who told me about their past experiments with the rebated boat-tail. He said the comparison between regular and rebated boat-tail bullets was a wash. It’s no surprise because of the relatively minor rebate used.”

While I wouldn’t question what you have stated while the projectile is in flight, did you look at what is happening before and as the projectile leaves the barrel? (as in gas cutting, or better sealing)
The second part of this question is manufacture; I understand it’s very hard to get a perfect ring where the boat-tail meets the shank? The clam is that there could be a gas leak when the projectile exits the barrel crown.

I’m not sure if this is part of your expertises and understand if you’d like to pass on answering…..

John
 
One statment I question?

You say, "Why don't winning short range bench rest bullets use a boat tail", have you checked the equipment lists lately? The Super Shoot was won this year using them. Just my first thought.

Joe Hynes
 
John,
You're right, I was talking about the external ballistic aspect of rebated boat-tails.
I would tend to agree with your statements about rebated boat-tails having better internal ballistic properties. It seems you would get a better defined gas seal, and a cleaner release from the crown, though I've never actually studied this (don't know how you would).
I think the idea put out there by Corbin about the rebated boat-tail acting as a 'spoiler' and diverting the muzzle blast around the bullet on muzzle exit is crap. Especially the claim that this effect is worth "15% better accuracy". One thing is for certain, and that is rebated boat-tails are easier to make than conventional boat-tails.

Joe,
Thanks for bringing that up, I wasn't aware. The fact means two things to me:
1. Manufacturing tolerances are improving to the point where the boat tail doesn't detract much from the precision of the bullet.
2. Was is a particularly windy shoot? If so it would make sense that a higher BC bullet of possibly compromised precision could do so well in a long agg.

-Bryan
 
Thanks for answering Bryan so honestly.

The RBT “spoiler diverting the muzzle blast away from the bullet on muzzle exit” would be proven to be false using a high speed camera and I think you nearly summed it up nicely! :eek:

“15% better accuracy” than what? Be nice if Mr Corbin could explain please…. :rolleyes:

Doesn’t the US have any laws about false advertising?


John
 
Joe,
Thanks for bringing that up, I wasn't aware. The fact means two things to me:
1. Manufacturing tolerances are improving to the point where the boat tail doesn't detract much from the precision of the bullet.
2. Was is a particularly windy shoot? If so it would make sense that a higher BC bullet of possibly compromised precision could do so well in a long agg.

-Bryan


Hi Bryan,

No, this is strictly an internal ballistic thing.

Many of the best short range "Hall of Famers", over the last couple of years, have been using boat tail bullets like; Hottensteins, Bruno OO's, O'Cocks, Barts, Gentners, and others that all have a common feature of a very short boat tail length and steep angle, not for better exterior ballistics but for better; bore riding, seal, and reduced fouling.

If you are going to be doing some serious bullet accuracy design work for Berger bullets, then you need to get some examples of these competing bullets and figure out exactly what dimensions of these short/steep angled boat tail bases are, and the principles of the various dimensions that contribute to the various accuracy enhancements.

I am pretty sure that Eric Steckler is aware of these implications and would be a good source to start with since he has spent alot time with Don Gentner, Gary O'Cock, and Lester Bruno ruminating about bullet accuracy..................Don
 
Bryan

A couple of comments and maybe a question.

The forming of a rebated boat-tail is done in two steps. First the boat-tale is formed and then the rebate rim is added. So in that way I don’t think RBTs are easier to make. It has been found that swaging a RBT in one pass has a tendency to crack the jacket at the boat-tail body junction.

Question: Wouldn’t better internal ballistics equate to potentially better accuracy? Seems like RBTs have most of the benefits of a standard BTs and some of the benefits of a flat base.
As you have said “I would tend to agree with your statements about rebated boat-tails having better internal ballistic properties. It seems you would get a better defined gas seal, and a cleaner release from the crown”
I am guessing here but isn’t using a chronograph set 15’ from a gun measuring, for the most part, internal ballistic efficiency and that is the foundation for long-range accuracy?


Al Barnhart
 
Don,
Thanks for clarifying about the boat-tails being short and steep. Obviously they're not for drag reduction. However, I can't understand how such a boat tail would be better than a flat base in the areas you mentioned (bore riding, seal, reduced fouling). Maybe truncating the back end of the bullet is simply a way to control the bearing surface to a desirable length? If guys are winning with them, then there's obviously something 'right' about them (or maybe the bullets are no better than flat bases and it's the shooters winning?)
Whatever the reason behind it, I appreciate you bringing it up.

Al,
When I said 'easier', I was referring to the durability of the boat-tail forming die, in particular the edges that have to be knife-edge sharp for conventional boat tails and are prone to breaking if alignment isn't perfect. A rebated boat-tail forming die has some 'meat' on it's edges, making it a more robust die.
I am guessing here but isn’t using a chronograph set 15’ from a gun measuring, for the most part, internal ballistic efficiency and that is the foundation for long-range accuracy?

That's a tricky statement. The chronograph is measuring velocity (average and ES/SD) which is a measure of the consistency of your internal ballistics. However, there is the possibility of poor launch/separation dynamics that will result in high dispersion despite good chrono readings.

My question is: is there really anything about a certain type of base design (FB, BT, RBT, etc) that can affect launch dynamics for better or worse? And a follow up, should the type of bullet base be considered when cutting a crown?

-Bryan
 
Don,
Thanks for clarifying about the boat-tails being short and steep. Obviously they're not for drag reduction. However, I can't understand how such a boat tail would be better than a flat base in the areas you mentioned (bore riding, seal, reduced fouling).

-Bryan


Bryan,

Think along the lines of a maximized bullet base sealing system, that thru the optimum angle and length of boat tail and area of the base, allow for continuous ideal pressure obturation of the base area of the boat tail, thru varying barrel bore textures/diameters and pressure ranges, with minimal scrubbing of copper at the base end as the bullet travels up the tube.

The optimal obturation characteristics of the copper jacketed BT is highly dependant on the precise ratio of the BT features as exemplified by the size of the Hottenstein, Bruno OO, and other competition BT bullets.

Not all BTs are superior to FBs, probably depends upon matching certain barrel traits/conditions to certain bullet characteristics.

FB pressure ring areas will always scrub more copper than BTs because of the ring bulge.

Don
 
Last edited:
Back
Top