Belted case problems real or not , Cures?

Z

zeke mccune

Member
Hi:

As some of you know, I have been having a bit of a sticky wicket with a new barrel on a Remington 7mm magnum rifle. I have been told that the belted case is in part to blame for my problems. See my post in the Gunsmithing sectiion under 'Can't get resised shells into my gun.'

I began loading the belted case, .264 Winchester Magnum in 1961, and have had a .308 Norma since. I never had any problems with these belted cases! I also loaded ammo for a friend who also shot a .308 Norma. No problems with that ammo also.

Do you people who shoot the belted case experience problems unique to the belted case like short service life and bulged cases? If so, what types of problems have you encountered and how did you rectify them.

Stay well,

Zeke
 
I have loaded various magnums since 1972, mostly the .300 Win. Mag. I have never had any trouble with any of them, but I start with new brass dedicated to the first rifle it is fired in, I never mix brass fired in different rifles.
I have measured a lot of new brass and factory ammunition and found the shoulder is short by .007 to .015 of what specs are for a chamber, they are obviously counting on the belt for headspacing the cartridge.
After I fire the new brass, I measure and use the shoulder for headspace and the belt becomes non critical for headspace.
If I rebarrel or sell a rifle I get rid of the old brass, life is too short to fight the problems you are having.
One of the rifles is still using the brass I bought with it in 1972, it is a hunting rifle and only has about 400 rds. through it.
 
I agree. Start with new brass, and after the first firing size them like you would PROPERLY size a non-belted case. This DOES NOT mean screw the die down till it hits the shell holder, like the instructions say. Properly adjust the die so that you are bumping the sholders back about .001 to .002 and you will be good to go.

The good thing about a belted case is that if you do decide to screw the die in all the way to the shell holder and the sholders do get bumped twenty thou, the belted case will be safe to shoot...at least once or twice. The non belted case that gets bumped twenty thou.....not so much!!
 
Problems; real and numerous. You WILL NOT get long-term fit/accuracy
Cures; none, altho Willis Collet Die is inspired and best fix
Solution; switch to non-belted case
 
The biggest problems that I have heard of were experienced by reloaders who did not know to set their FL dies to a proper shoulder bump, and instead ran their FL dies down to touch the shell holder. As I am sure most experienced belted case loaders know, setting up dies so that they do not push back fired cases shoulders excessively is important to case life. Back in the day, before there were any gauges to measure shoulder bump, I used to hang out in the back room of a gunsmith's shop, wit fellows who were experiencing short case life with their belted case magnums. They would speculate that this was because of "magnum pressures" and none of us had a clue about how to properly set up a FL die. It is an eye opener to measure and compare unfired and fired cases' head to shoulder measurements. On several that I checked, form factory chambers, the difference was about.021.
 
I' m going to take a stab at this one and after rereading the original thread, I believe your new barrel may have been chambered a bit short. Only a few thousands. Enough that your sizing die will not touch the shoulder even if screwed all the way down. To test this, take .005 To .010" off of the bottom of the die or remove that amount off of the shell holder and screw the die down til it contacts the shellholder and see if a case fits better after sizing. If so then adjust your die properly and enjoy your new barrel.
Richard Schatz
 
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R. Schatz said:
I' m going to take a stab at this one and after rereading the original thread, I believe your new barrel may have been chambered a bit short. Only a few thousands. Enough that your sizing die will not touch the shoulder even if screwed all the way down. To test this, take .005 To .010" off of the bottom of the die or remove that amount off of the shell holder and screw the die down til it contacts the shellholder and see if a case fits better after sizing. If so then adjust your die properly and enjoy your new barrel.
Richard Schatz
Click to expand...

Agree...I have done this to one die and two different shellholders to make things work.
 
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Maybe I am not reading this right, but I have been told that the belted cases headspace off the belt,? not the shoulder I am not sure if I agree with what you say bout screwing the die all thew way in, and the belted case will be safe to shoot, not for me! belted or non belted. Ron Tilley
Tod Soeby said:
I agree. Start with new brass, and after the first firing size them like you would PROPERLY size a non-belted case. This DOES NOT mean screw the die down till it hits the shell holder, like the instructions say. Properly adjust the die so that you are bumping the sholders back about .001 to .002 and you will be good to go.

The good thing about a belted case is that if you do decide to screw the die in all the way to the shell holder and the sholders do get bumped twenty thou, the belted case will be safe to shoot...at least once or twice. The non belted case that gets bumped twenty thou.....not so much!!
Click to expand...
 
tillroot1 said:
Maybe I am not reading this right, but I have been told that the belted cases headspace off the belt,? not the shoulder I am not sure if I agree with what you say bout screwing the die all thew way in, and the belted case will be safe to shoot, not for me! belted or non belted. Ron Tilley
Click to expand...

No..I said that they (a belted case) would be safe to shoot "once or twice". I FF brass that gets moved around WAY more than that. If you had a belt on a dasher case you wouldn't need to make a false sholder or jam the bullet, would you? The amount that the dasher brass gets blown out is WAY more than you would get simply by screwing the die all the way down to the shell holder....unless, of course, the die is totaly FUBAR!!! I would bet that you could shoot 300 Winchester shells in a 300 Weatherby chamber all day long without any issues. Well, issues other than really funky brass as a result.:D

Shooting a non belted case with that much headspace is a disaster waiting to happen. Thus the false sholder.

Properly headspacing a belted case off of the sholder should give it as much life as comprable non belted cases.

Am I wrong in my assurtions?
 
Tod,
You have it exactly right. All one needs to do is to measure from the shoulder on a new case, a fired case, and a case that has been fired and sized with the die touching the shell holder to see what is going on. One of the Hornady (formerly Stoney Point) caliper attachments should get this done just fine.
 
Tod & Boyd for years when I was shooting the 308 Baer I was headspaceing of the shoulder, and would eventually have the problem just in front of the belt. Then I had a gunsmith rechamber the rifle headspaceing of the belt and still don't have that problem.

Joe Salt
 
alinwa said:
Problems; real and numerous. You WILL NOT get long-term fit/accuracy
Cures; none, altho Willis Collet Die is inspired and best fix
Solution; switch to non-belted case
Click to expand...



Hmmmmm.....

1. Phillip Yott, 300 ACK
2. Danny Brooks, 300 ACK
4. Lee Fischer, 300 ACK
5. Ed Caldwell, 300 ACK
6. Kerry Vinson, 300 ACK
7. Mike McNeil, 300 ACK
8. Alvin Johnson, 300 ACK
9. Johnny Byers, 300 ACK

Guess somebody shoulda told 'um that they had accuracy problems with those sorry, belted cases........

Scott
 
That is exactly what I am thinking and how I set up for my .300 Win Mags. Ron Tilley
Joe Salt said:
Tod & Boyd for years when I was shooting the 308 Baer I was headspaceing of the shoulder, and would eventually have the problem just in front of the belt. Then I had a gunsmith rechamber the rifle headspaceing of the belt and still don't have that problem.

Joe Salt
Click to expand...
 
Ron like I've always said! If it doesn't work for you one way try something else. If something is giving me the miseries no matter what it is with guns try something else. But just one thing at a time!

Joe Salt
 
Of course the chamber should have correct headspace at the belt. What I was referring to was how FL dies should be set so that cases will not separate from excessive stretching. Even if the headspace is set up properly, there there can be a problem setting the shoulder back too far when sizing. Of course it helps to have a die and chamber that are well matched. If they do not, when the die is set correctly so that the shoulder is not pushed back too far, the area just in front of the belt may not be sized. This is the issue that the Willis collet die (a clever piece of work) addresses. When I ordered a reamer for a friend's tight neck .300 Weatherby project, I measured the unfired brass, and only allowed a small amount of shoulder movement on the first firing, instead of the .021 that the factory chamber allowed. We also ordered a FL die reamer, with matching specs. There was some adventurous pressure testing done, after the barrel was chambered and installed, since the throat did not have the usual freebore, but was set up so that 180 grain bullets could be loaded into the rifling, and still have the rounds feed from the magazine. We started low, and ended well above the book, that one time. There have never been any issues with this chamber. I think that the problems that people have with belted cases are primarily because of mismatches between brass, chambers, and dies. We started with the brass, and designed the other two around it. At the root of the problem is that there is no SAAMI head to shoulder spec for belted cases, so in order to cover themselves, die makers position shoulders so that they will work for the chambers that are shortest in this dimension. The other thing that I did on this chamber was to stick with factory body diameters, since I am well aware of what can happen, especially at the back, if dimensions do not allow for web swell from repeated high pressure firing. In this respect I followed the principal that Alinwa espouses. There is such a thing as having too little clearance at the back, a situation 6PPC shooters, who favor hot loads are probably aware of.
 
Scott Fletcher said:
Hmmmmm.....

1. Phillip Yott, 300 ACK
2. Danny Brooks, 300 ACK
4. Lee Fischer, 300 ACK
5. Ed Caldwell, 300 ACK
6. Kerry Vinson, 300 ACK
7. Mike McNeil, 300 ACK
8. Alvin Johnson, 300 ACK
9. Johnny Byers, 300 ACK

Guess somebody shoulda told 'um that they had accuracy problems with those sorry, belted cases........

Scott
Click to expand...

Never a problem with accuracy, Scott. Just case life. Dunno how this thread got off the way it has...

BTW, Ed Caldwell turned the belts off his, as, ultimately, did Joel Pendergraft.

But your point's good. Someday, maybe, the .300 WSM and the li'l Dasher may get as many wins as the .300 Ackley...
 
BTW, the people Scott listed are Nos 1 through 9 on the IBS Long Range Marksman list. They're all "Gold" or "Platinum" except for Alvin & Johnny, at 99.9 and 99.4 points, respectively. I do hope Alvin & Johnny Shoot another couple matches -- that should get them to the Gold Level.

Only "6mm Bill Shehane" (No. 3 lifetime) isn't listed, and if I recall correctly, Bill did, for a few years later in his career, shoot a .300 Ackley. That was Bill's darn Broughton barrel, which cost me several wins...

They weren't all exactly ".300 Ackley's" -- Ed Caldwell shot a .300 Weatherby (beltless), and Danny's favorite was a .300 Win Mag, not a .300 Ackley -- but the Win Mag does have a belt.

Again, I think Scott's point is there is no accuracy issue with the belted cases. Properly sized and loaded, you can get 10-15 reloads on a case. Eventually though, that mean little spot just above the belt will get you, befoe a beltless case would give it up.

I'm also sure the younger crowd with their small 6mms and .300 WSMs will in time get the points needed to supplant the original folk. There are many more matches now, and people with money who will both travel & chamber up 20+ barrels a season, shooting only the best of those barrels.

Contrast that to Alvin Johnson, who mainly used one barrel on his Light Gun for the whole 15 years he was active (a K&P, no longer made).

Shannon Lowman recently remarked that 600 rounds is about all he can get for peak accuracy with a Dasher, needed against today's stiff competition. That puts 1,000 yard shooting on a level with point-blank benchrest, where the world-class shooters get only 500-600 rounds out of their PPCs at big matches.

FWIW
 
Charles That 500-600 rounds is whats keeping me from the Dasher! I've got 5 years out of Kathy 300WSM with quite a few wins. But I still like using the 308 Baer in the wind. The other thing I like doing with the Baer is neck size about three to four times before I full lenght size and bump the shoulder.

Joe Salt
 
I once saw a 300 win mag FL die that if adjusted to touch the shell holder was actually mushrooming the top of the belt. The cases were swollen enough that they wouldn't chamber. Once I gave a few lessons to the user, and a new batch of brass was worked up to headspace off of the shoulder, all was well. Zeke check the diameter of the belts.
 
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