Barrel Tuners

S

shinny

Shinny
I'm sure this post will open a can of worms, but here goes.:confused:

I am relatively new to the game and have been making slow but sure progress and am starting to wonder about BARREL TUNERS.

Does the caliber that the tuner will be used on require different style/type tuners?

Any recommendations of a source for tried & true tuners for both calibers, if necessary?

Joel, if you read this would appreciate your input.:)
 
Shinny

We shoot both 6PPC and 30BR, and use the same tuners, (my own design), on both. It does not seem to make any difference.

In reality, just about anything that you can place on the barrel will change the harmonics, the key is that once set, it can not move or shift in any direction from shot to shot.

I have recently gone to a totally non metalic tuner, one made from Nylatron, the other from Thorplast. Seems to work just like the ones that I build from aluminum with the rubber dampenning feature.........jackie
 
Ok, my two cents worth:

I have used and observed 4 kind, three of which I have. I shot beside a fellow who was using a Shadetree last Saturday and I must say, I liked that one. I think it is too heavy or could be an ounce or so lighter but it is very nicely made with a nice numbered scale. It has way more length than is needed I think.

From my experience the tuners that hang over the muzzle are very sensative and perhaps too much so. I would prefer to have to move the tuner more for more predicatable and quantifiable results. The over the muzzle tuners work but I think the behind the muzzle units are better for several reasons.

All said and done, it is hard to beat the simplicity of the Beggs design. I would like to see a nice gradurated dial in Hours and half or quarter hours on it though. Some have found that finer adjustments are necessary.
 
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I have a Beggs tuner on my 30BR. I have seen, not used, Lambert's tuner. Both very nice. I have no experience with any other tuners.

I have made a spreadsheet that correlates tuner placement based on DA. I simply go to the line while the target crew is on their way back - check the DA - check my spreadsheet - make the appropriate changes. This spreadsheet is in 15 min incriments. After doing it - probably don't need to be that precise, but I already have it done - so not going to change it.

In terms of how much it changes the group - as far as I can tell - if the tuner is supposed to be at 9 and I put it at 3 - I can pretty much count on 3/4 bullet of "bigness"

Important thing to remember - doesn't matter if you have tuner or not - if you miss a condition your bullet won't go where you want it to.

Stanley
 
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Without getting into a "beggs vs. lambert" discussion, Ive found the lambert tuner to be very predictable, consistant and simple to use with the small graduations. The marks make adjustments precise and easy to repeat.--Mike Ezell
 
:confused:Do Gene & Butch have web sites, if not does anyone have their phone numbers?

Thanx for the posts, most helpful.:)
 
Dan Killough sells alot of tuners and advertises on here as well.
The tuner won't know what barrel it is going on so add weight until your shots converge.The Von Aherns tuners with its multiple weight system is very hard to beat.
Waterboy
 
While the tuner may not know what caliber rifle it is on, the rifle will surely know what tuner. By that I mean that rimfire and long range weight limits are different than so called short range CF Benchrest. This is particularly important when trying to stay under 10.5# while maintaining rifle balance. The Beggs and Lambert tuners were designed with this in mind. I am not sure about the minimum weight of the Killough and von Ahrens units. I will tell you that for the typical 10.5# build there is probably not nearly as much room to add weight as on a long range or rimfire rifle. For this reason, there may be a significant difference of opinion as to how a tuner is to be set up and adjusted. If you search this subject, you will find that opinions vary....just a mite. My one suggestion is that you make sure that what ever advice you choose to take comes from someone who is shooting a tuner on the same type of rifle that you are thinking of putting one on.
 
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Boyd is right on target there. In centerfire short range BR, LV/Sporter Class weight is everything. I had a lot of chages to make before adding a 4 ounce tuner to the end of our barrels. That being said, we have tried the Beggs tuners and believe that they work as best as could be expected. We have them on LV and HV contours, and we currently shoot them with .30 BR, 6mmPPC, and 6.5mm BR chamberings. The Barrels are all different, and the loads of course are different but they are all Tunable and (DE)tunable.

I saw a tuner last year in Iowa at the Nationals that just wouldn't work for a guy the rifle shot better with the tuner off. The tuner was long, maybe 2", smaller Diameter than the Beggs, maybe an 1.375" diameter, it still may have weighed 4 ounces, but that 4 ounces was not pinpointed to a position 1/2" wide on the barrel like the Beggs tuner. That was my thought on why it wasn't working. The Beggs tunes in Matters of 1/2 revolution in most cases for us. from wherever you are with your current tuner setting you can be in and out of tune in a matter of 1/2 turn. It might possibly be beacouse of the pin pointed weight. The longer tuner may take many full turns to get into tune, I don't know, but the fella couldn't find tune in time at the nationals and resulted in switching barrels or rifles if I remember correctly.

Paul
 
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Borden Rifles Tuner

I have three rifles with the Borden Rifles Tuner as you see in this pic. The work wonderfully. I have the same type tuner on an HV and an LV and both work perfect.

Adrian

Borden_Tuner.jpg
 
Boyd
In my opinion you build the gun around the required amount of tuner weight and not the other way around.
Waterboy
 
Lynn,
Build a 10.5# er and come back and tell how you did it. Although I may be wrong if the optimal weight, by your standards, is light enough. So far, I have not heard of anyone who has been able to use enough weight to tune the way you do with heavier rifles. On the other hand, my next plan is to have steps cut on one of my barrels to a greater degree than before, to have more room for a heavier tuner.
Boyd
 
Boyd
My barrels are larger than what is used in the 100,200 yard game and require a tuner weight of 11-13 ounces 2.5 - 3.0 inches out in front of the muzzle.
In talking with Jim Borden by e-mail it seems he is happy with a tuner that doesn't adjust quickly.It seems he goes to the line only needing a minor amount of adjustability but I could be reading his thoughts incorrectly.

It is not my intent to shoot shortrange benchrest with a tuner in order to show that they work.I have been using them and know first hand what they are capable of doing.I recently finished 6th in heaygun score and 6th in heavygun group at the NBRSA Nationals and 10th overall for the match.95% of the shooters were using 6mm's and I was using a 300 Ackley that holds 100grains of water.

If you go to www.rimfireaccuracy.com you can still read what Bill Calfee is posting about tuners.They ran him off then they all switched to tuners just as he predicted they would.Maybe Mike M from Southern California who debated until he was blue in the face can build the 10.5 pound rifle.
Waterboy
 
Lynn

What does it mean for shots to converge? I generally shoot 100 yards, so what would I look for?

The tuner won't know what barrel it is going on so add weight until your shots converge
Click to expand...

Thanks,
Tony Carpenter


PS The Borden tuner looks really nice and easy to adjust!
 
Tony
Your tuner should have enough mass to correct for the same amount of vertical as adjusting your seating depth would take care of.If your tuner is too light you won't be able to remove enough vertical from your groups.

When your shots converge they all come together at the same point.If your tuner is set for 100 yards it won't be optimised for 200 or 300 yards and your shots won't converge.

In my experience if your tuner isn't properly adjusted it will prevent your gun from shooting small groups.Maybe Boyd Allen can tell us if this is true with his tuners in 100,200 yard benchrest but it is definitely what I see farther out.

I don't doubt anything Jim Borden says about his tuners.I like my tuners to be extremely predictable and from my own experience as tuner that is too light acts lazy or slow to respond for lack of a better term.In hearing about what Jim was saying it seems to ME his tuner is minimaly affective but works great for his style of loading.
Waterboy

Waterboy
 
Lynn,
You miss my point.Tuners work. I know this. It is just that the weight limit of a 10.5# rifle, and the need to keep a rifle balanced for free recoil place constraints on short range that you do not have. Centerfire barrels will not work as thin as rimfire. It has been tried. Short heavy barrels may be stiffer than long heavy barrels, and IF, being stiffer, they require more tuner weight to work in the way that you describe, then there is a problem with that application, with that design approach. On the other hand, tuners that are lighter have been found useful by some very successful shooters. No one is saying that you are not knowledgeable or successful in the arena that you compete, or for that matter that Bill is not in rimfire. The point of contention is whether pronouncements about how to set up a tuner on a rifle that has a significantly different set of design criteria are valid, and can be accepted without demonstration on a 10.5# 6PPC. My experience was with a combined fixed and movable weight of around 5.5 oz. The movable weight was around 3.25 oz.+-. When I moved the weight the response was, as you would expect, somewhat sluggish and hard to see, but nonetheless real. With that tuner on board, an old worn out barrel shot significantly better, at a match, than it had before, winning its last match before retirement. It shot closer to the flags, and its tune was broadened significantly. Also, I find it interesting that one of the the most successful short range Benchrest shooters, that uses a tuner, takes an entirely different approach to its use than is usual where preloading is the rule, finding an optimal tuner setting, and then adjusting the load during the day,to stay in tune. I am told that other good shooters in his area take the same approach. I hasten to add that these shooters are excellent, with or without tuners. For myself, I only wish that a tuner could be made that would read wind flags:)
Boyd
 
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Boyd Allen
Boyd I found out early on that I couldn't take an existing 17 pound rifle add a heavy tuner that actually worked and expect to make the 17 pound limitation of the class I was competing in.
I shortened the barrel enough to make my weight restriction and adjusted the tuners weight as was necessary to achieve what I was after as far as tuning range.
Shot out barrels collecting dust in the corner are perfect candidates for learning what length and contour will be required before ordering up a fresh blank.

If I had to shoot a 18.5 inch light varmint contour in order to properly set up the tuner that is the way I would approach the problem.

If the lighter/shorter barrel requirement meant the gun would no longer shoot competively I would drop the tuner until enough weight could be saved elsewhere that I could revisit the problem at a later time.

Accuracy trumps everything in my opinion so hanging a 25 inch barrel on a receiver doesn't mean much in my opinion unless it will consistantly outshoot a 22 inch barrel day in and day out.
I won't quote your opinion on the validity of tuners but will remind you of what happened here in the past when someone stated emphatically that they do indeed actually work.
One of the guys you probaly shoot with in Visalia/Sacramento is working on getting my father and myself into the 100,200 yard game.I even went so far as to send Jim Borden an e-mail on friday about getting my father an action
for his birthday present this year so he can compete.
Waterboy aka Lynn
 
Lynn,
Quote me all you want. I could be wrong :eek: about the amount of weight going up as the barrel gets stiffer (for a tuner to work like yours do for long range or Bills do for rimfire). It sounds like, with your entry into short range, we are about to find out...good. :)
 
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