barrel thread question

J

JDR

Guest
Hello; Is there any difference in barrel threads cut with the compound set at 29.5 or one set straight with a bit cut at 60 degrees? Also how tight should the fit be with the reciever should there be some slack?
 
The end results should be the same because you set your 60 degree bit perpendicular to the tenon with a fishtail gage either way. The difference is feeding straight in cuts on both sides and feeding in with the compound at 29.5 degrees cuts on the leading edge. The fit should not be loose, but you should be able to turn the barrel on by hand. The infeed value will be different for straight vs. using the compound at 29.5 degrees. nhk
 
When threading the cross slide is set on "0" and returned to "0" each time after making a cut. The compound is set to 29.5 degrees and this is what you feed the thread cutter with. You use 29.5 degrees so that the front of the cutter takes most of the cut and the cutter is only cutting on one edge. You get a better and smoother cut this way and the thread angle is going to give you a 60 degree thread. The extra .5 degree on the backside allows the cutter to "drag" a bit on the backside so that any misalignment on the machinist's part doesn't show itself in the thread. If you run the cutter straight in you allow it to cut on both sides of the point and it won't make as smooth a cut. Plus any misalignment of the cutter will result in an angle other than 60 degrees on the thread point. I do not try to thread a barrel too tightly to an action, especially a stainless steel one. Galling can be a real problem if you're not careful with fit and lubrication. A little bit of clearance on the threads (not talking sloppy here, but easily assembled by hand) will allow the shoulders of the barrel and action to fit squarely and that's what you're really after.
 
In theory, all of the above is good info. However, I have found that the angle of the compund when set at 29.5 deg is not always the correct angle. Not that the angle is wrong, it may be the angle the compound sits on the cross slide. On my lathe, I find that if I set the compound at 29.5 or so, I end up with the tool cutting only on the leading edge and it does not give me a true 60deg thread. I need to set my compound at about 26-27deg to get it to cut correctly so clean up both sides of the thread "V". The angle markings on the cross slide are not correct and may be what yours is. I never bothered to check further, I just set the compund where I have done it for the last 25 years or so. I could probably use a sine bar to check but that would be too easy.
 
On some import lathes the scale and the witness mark on the compound are placed so you have to use 59.5 or 60 degrees. If it is a new lathe a practice cut may be a good idea.
 
My Dad taught me to use the 29.5 degree setting, but when the thread is almost finished (about .001" left in it) you feed the last cut strait in .0005". This cleans up the back side of the thread form as well as the face you've been cutting. But when chasing a thread, I will usually just pick the old thread up and feed strait in cutiing both faces at the sametime (you normally are cutting less than .002" altogether)
gary
 
My Dad taught me to use the 29.5 degree setting, but when the thread is almost finished (about .001" left in it) you feed the last cut strait in .0005". This cleans up the back side of the thread form as well as the face you've been cutting. But when chasing a thread, I will usually just pick the old thread up and feed strait in cutiing both faces at the sametime (you normally are cutting less than .002" altogether)
gary

That's actually what I do too. nhk
 
The angular setting question has been satisfied I think. Regarding thread fit.

IMO it becomes a function of surface finish. If your using HSS tooling that's ground by hand and qualified with a thread fish then you'll likely need to keep your spindle RPM pretty conservative to avoid burning up the tool. It's also because it can be tough to grind the proper geometry by hand. It's an art that is starting to become lost as CNC's and insert tooling takes much of the guesswork out.

If your able to use insert carbide then it is in your best interest to practice making tennons until you can comfortably run your spindle speed at 1000+ rpm. It sounds daunting but I promise you can do it if you just practice it. It's all about cadence. buy a stick of 12L leaded round stock and devote a weekend to it. About the time your sick of doing it is when they'll start to look impressive. (honest injun!) A water soluble cutting oil is fine. You won't need the stinky high sulfur stuff. Save that for chambering. One thing to keep in mind is mist cooling. With carbide its almost always one or the other. Either flood it or run it dry. The thermal shock loading caused from the intermittent cooling delivered by misters will fracture the insert and accelerate its wear. At $20 bucks a piece it compels a guy to listen to the spec sheets.

The reason for the high rpm is this is where the carbide actually works as designed. Insert cutters aren't sharp because they actually depend on the material going molten. they are designed to put the bulk of the heat in the chip being sloughed off. A sharp edge would break down rather quickly as the coatings used don't adhere well to corners and it's a great place for heat to loiter around and start tearing stuff up. The molten state is what your after because it'll produce nice bright shiny threads on your tennon. This (with practice) will allow you to close up the fit between the receiver. I can't help but think this is a good thing as it helps to solidify the joint and help ensure the barrel is pointing where the scope/sights tell it to.

The surface finish is the key. If threads look like they are cut with an axe then they are more prone to "bubble gumming" with the receiver. If they are bright then they have a lower friction coefficient and will tolerate the closer fit better. Regardless a good thread lubricant is an essential component. Many use antiseize compounds. I'd gone to a synthetic grease called "TRI FLOW". It's popular with RC helicopter guys. Heliproz.com in Billings MT sells it. (good stuff!) The reason is a bit complicated. I once had a very high minded discussion with a guy who makes a very good living designing fasteners for the aerospace industry. (this means his mind was the high one and I just closed the pie hole and opened the ears):)

Antiseize is designed to prevent two materials from sticking together. Heat, friction, corrosion all play into this. So does the tensile loading placed on the fastener when it's tightened up.

A thread lubricant should promote the joint being able to develop the tensile loading on the threads so that it becomes secure. It should not encourage the joint to slip over time due to heat and vibration. As a punk kid I loitered around race engine shops all over southern CA. Never once saw an engine builder use anti seize on connecting rod bolts or main cap studs.

You want that "bite" so the tennon doesn't slip. Least that's how I approach it. If your a BR guy who changes barrels like underwear then maybe it's not so critical since you get the luxury of lots of sighters. A course gun or hunting rifle is more dependent upon group center holding day to day.

Hope this helped and good luck.

C
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The angular setting question has been satisfied I think. Regarding thread fit.

IMO it becomes a function of surface finish. If your using HSS tooling that's ground by hand and qualified with a thread fish then you'll likely need to keep your spindle RPM pretty conservative to avoid burning up the tool. It's also because it can be tough to grind the proper geometry by hand. It's an art that is starting to become lost as CNC's and insert tooling takes much of the guesswork out.

If your able to use insert carbide then it is in your best interest to practice making tennons until you can comfortably run your spindle speed at 1000+ rpm. It sounds daunting but I promise you can do it if you just practice it. It's all about cadence. buy a stick of 12L leaded round stock and devote a weekend to it. About the time your sick of doing it is when they'll start to look impressive. (honest injun!) A water soluble cutting oil is fine. You won't need the stinky high sulfur stuff. Save that for chambering. One thing to keep in mind is mist cooling. With carbide its almost always one or the other. Either flood it or run it dry. The thermal shock loading caused from the intermittent cooling delivered by misters will fracture the insert and accelerate its wear. At $20 bucks a piece it compels a guy to listen to the spec sheets.

The reason for the high rpm is this is where the carbide actually works as designed. Insert cutters aren't sharp because they actually depend on the material going molten. they are designed to put the bulk of the heat in the chip being sloughed off. A sharp edge would break down rather quickly as the coatings used don't adhere well to corners and it's a great place for heat to loiter around and start tearing stuff up. The molten state is what your after because it'll produce nice bright shiny threads on your tennon. This (with practice) will allow you to close up the fit between the receiver. I can't help but think this is a good thing as it helps to solidify the joint and help ensure the barrel is pointing where the scope/sights tell it to.

The surface finish is the key. If threads look like they are cut with an axe then they are more prone to "bubble gumming" with the receiver. If they are bright then they have a lower friction coefficient and will tolerate the closer fit better. Regardless a good thread lubricant is an essential component. Many use antiseize compounds. I'd gone to a synthetic grease called "TRI FLOW". It's popular with RC helicopter guys. Heliproz.com in Billings MT sells it. (good stuff!) The reason is a bit complicated. I once had a very high minded discussion with a guy who makes a very good living designing fasteners for the aerospace industry. (this means his mind was the high one and I just closed the pie hole and opened the ears):)

Antiseize is designed to prevent two materials from sticking together. Heat, friction, corrosion all play into this. So does the tensile loading placed on the fastener when it's tightened up.

A thread lubricant should promote the joint being able to develop the tensile loading on the threads so that it becomes secure. It should not encourage the joint to slip over time due to heat and vibration. As a punk kid I loitered around race engine shops all over southern CA. Never once saw an engine builder use anti seize on connecting rod bolts or main cap studs.

You want that "bite" so the tennon doesn't slip. Least that's how I approach it. If your a BR guy who changes barrels like underwear then maybe it's not so critical since you get the luxury of lots of sighters. A course gun or hunting rifle is more dependent upon group center holding day to day.

Hope this helped and good luck.

C

most everybody here will only be cutting threads from 16TPI to 20TPI, so tool pressure is not that great. But if your cutting threads in some really tough stuff, then you must deal with it. Carbide inserts have far greater tool pressure than tool steel. The shaft the threads are being cut on will tend to push away with higher loads when using carbide inserts. But you can always get away with this problem by making your last two cuts at about .0005". But even then the thread form will be almost as good as one cut from Rex 95 or Vasco Supreme. I've used a spray mist quite a lot without any insert breakage, but also keep the spray at a constant flow. Also been able to slow the cutting speed down quite a bit with this method. Yet if I wanted something nice and tight, and was too lazy to grind the threads; I went with a steel cutting bit. I came up with a coolant that is the best I've ever seen under high tool loads, and this one you'll never believe in a hundred years. We used to use a coolant called "Trim" that was water soluble. I used raw trim right out of the can without mixing water. Put it on the shaft with a paint brush (looks like snot). Threads come out with a satin finish, and the thread form is excellent. Also works well with with reamers and large diameter taps.
gary
 
I am with Chad on the spend a day learning how to cut barrel threads by practicing on a non barrel.
But I did not start with 12L like him.
I started on plastic pipe.
I worked my way up to Aluminum.
Then mild steel.
The hardest steel I ever cut was on an M70 stainless 7mmMag take off barrel, that I cut off the old threads and cut Mauser threads.

Barrellthreadwithouttearing.jpg

I could only cut 0.001" per pass on the threads. This is some nasty stainless.
The compound was set at 27 degrees for 55 degree Mauser threads.
 
I thread straight in also and ever since I read the little article in PS magazine about threading from the shoulder out with the tool upside down I do that also. You can go as fast as you like with out having to stop before you hit the shoulder.

Gary
 
Question:

When threading from the shoulder back, does one have to begin their cuts in a groove deeper then the threads?
 
Yes, unless your are really, really fast! And don't forget to run the lathe in reverse.
 
There is a lathe that was designed to thread at 1000RPM, even too a shoulder, the Hardinge HLV......amazing lathe.........Ian
 
I cut in to the depth that the threads will be cut in that particular pass and then engage the half nuts and thread out to the end, disengage the half nuts move back to the groove and do it again until the desired depth is acheived.

Gary
 
There is a lathe that was designed to thread at 1000RPM, even too a shoulder, the Hardinge HLV......amazing lathe.........Ian

The best of the best! Love their auto tool retract, and the frame is extremely ridgid. It's a solid .0005" hand lathe.
gary
 
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