Butch Lambert
Active member
Jerry,
I filed on a 6 sided steel block. An 8 sided square one must have been fun.
Butch
I filed on a 6 sided steel block. An 8 sided square one must have been fun.
Butch
Hey Tim,
slide down to Ridgefield and talk to Schurman Machine and IMW to see how the industry is doing around here. There are a couple shops near the junction that do light machining too. BTW I think Kap's is gone, if you do a search he's still listed but I think he quit.
Last I knew was a couple guys leaving the Ridgefield area headed for Seattle hoping that the bigger av shops were hiring/training. I don't mean to be a wet blanket but when I went to Gunsmithing School my thought was "I can always find a machine shop job.. I can make anything." But IMO now, that's just the start. To get paid well now you must make something else that makes the part, or at least learn how to program ...... you must graduate to button pusher.
I married the daughter of a tool and die maker, a machinist of 50+yrs experience. This was in the Midwest, center of Industry. My father-in-law was "a machinist out of Detroit." Clear up into the 80's they were in high demand, Terex, Cal-Tech, Ford, Deere, Peterbuilt.... The 90's were slower, more money spent upgrading than money made as the industry was tapering into the new century. The "machining centers" seemed to be taking over.... program a card, drop in a billet of material and 56 operations later a finished part pops out...
The writing was on the wall. Hand work is OVER!
In the last few years they've completely gutted the shop, TONS of iron sent to scrap to be replaced by one laser cutter. It's now a material handling warehouse with one big machine and some brakes. Out here on the West Coast it's the same way. Just down the street in Brush Prairie (25min from you) was a huge machine shop.This guy set up next to the tracks to move big iron. He turned the mast and spars for the ship set in the movie "Master and Commander, on the Far Side of the Ocean." A friend of mine bought the shop for a construction warehouse and ended up selling train cars of perfectly good iron for weight.
I'm not making a judgement here, I don't see this as "bad" or "good" it just IS..... I caught the tail end of the hand-working era, the "machine shop" era. My gunsmithing teacher was Ferlach trained, a German from the Old country. I could and did make ANY type of part by hand. And I learned well. You give me a drill, a hacksaw and some files and sandpaper and I can turn out a perfectly fitted and machined part for any mo'chine on the planet, given time
But time is money, and what I DIDN'T know back when I was 'smithing was the worth of time and a dollar. I thought nothing of spending hours on a part for a hundred dollar gun. I hear talk of us being a "throw away society" but IMO we're just a RICH society filled with quality goods. It's no longer cost-effective to keep hobbling along with patched together junk. My microwave broke last week. Did I call a repairman??? NO! I listened to it, wiggled the door and then took it out to the trash pile and bought another better one for $80.00. It was far and away the cheapest route. Even cars last twice-three times as long as they did back in the day and then you chuck 'em...well, not quite but almost. You've really got to weight the costs VS buying another one.
IMO if you're gonna' be a machinist today you have to be prepared to train beyond hands-on.
I'm a hands on machinist.
I can swage.
I can peen.
I can knurl.
I can scrape.
I can cast parts.
I can forge parts.
I can hot weld and cold weld metal and stretch metal and stitch metal and temper and mold the stuff. I can machine it and grind it and polish it and fit it until it becomes a living thing, affected by its environment so that fit/no-fit depends on how much you handle it....... but so what. For me at my level it's a hobby.
If I was in jail for a year I could play a wicked guitar when I came out too
I'm just sayin'........
Check out the market before ya' spends the college money! Schools think absolutely NOTHING of taking your money to teach you outdated tech.
BTDT
Then again, As Jake says you do need the school to get in the door.....and you DO need to learn to handle the metal before you can punch the buttons..... As they say in construction, "you gotta' learn to run a shovel before you can get good on an excavator...."
opinionsby
al
Don Nielson
New member
Hey Butch
He probably dosen't shoot dice very much. Pumpkin
He probably dosen't shoot dice very much. Pumpkin
S
Signguy
Guest
I am looking at Clark County Community College in Vancouver, WA.
alinwa, thanks for the info and heads up. I am going to do some more looking around. It is allot of money 8,000.00 not 12,000.00 but it is still 8,000.00.
I may have to try to keep this business going and persue machining, smithing on the side.
The sign buisness is real bad up here right now like many other things.
It has also gotten to be really boring over the past few years.
Tim
alinwa, thanks for the info and heads up. I am going to do some more looking around. It is allot of money 8,000.00 not 12,000.00 but it is still 8,000.00.
I may have to try to keep this business going and persue machining, smithing on the side.
The sign buisness is real bad up here right now like many other things.
It has also gotten to be really boring over the past few years.
Tim
Hi Signguy,While i'm not a machinist or a smith,these guys that posted here are among the best of the best, at what they do, and they are telling you that the future of the machinist may be uncertain, at best. It"s been my personal expierence that a hard working, dependable person that wants to work will be able to find work. Just a thought, if you decide against the machinist trade, have you thought about a skilled job in the building trades or the utility business? Their business can be seasonal, and they sometimes see the up's and downs of the economy, but nowdays nothing is certain. Like someone above said, a plumber or electrician can make a comfortable living.Sorry for the long post, and maybe too much advice, but I like to see a guy that really want's to, to better his self. Good Luck Lightman
M.D.Spencer
New member
I've been laid off may times in this trade
Worked many places. It can be rewarding. The place I'm working for now, is looking @ buildings, so they can handle the overflow of machines they expect to be building. Several of the company's I worked for down in Bay City and Saginaw, MI are gone. Danti tool is one. Bob pressprech was the second owner of Danti. Claimed her could hire and fire all day long. One Saturday he had five guys come in and five guys left. (I made it two years, three month and 19 days, before I was laid off) Before he retired and sold the shop. He said that he couldn't do that anymore. The people in this trade aren't their anymore. Point is I feel for ever cloud their is a silver lining.
Worked many places. It can be rewarding. The place I'm working for now, is looking @ buildings, so they can handle the overflow of machines they expect to be building. Several of the company's I worked for down in Bay City and Saginaw, MI are gone. Danti tool is one. Bob pressprech was the second owner of Danti. Claimed her could hire and fire all day long. One Saturday he had five guys come in and five guys left. (I made it two years, three month and 19 days, before I was laid off) Before he retired and sold the shop. He said that he couldn't do that anymore. The people in this trade aren't their anymore. Point is I feel for ever cloud their is a silver lining.
P
phantom496
Guest
From an old Tool Maker. . .
If you are into being a Machinist . . All of the above coments are dead on, take them to heart, been there and done that. But the one thing that I would stress, is math. Without a working knowledge of Trig and plane Geometry you are going to be handicaped all your carrier. They are the fine line between being a machinist and a "Good" machinist. I spent 10 years as a Mold Maker, everything has an angle and an intersecting radius, you have to know how to handle that aspect of the job, it is not a guessing game. I have had leads tell guys to scribe it in and cut to the line. In the model shop I worked in, on some models that line was nearly 6" on a full size plane, makes a lot of difference to the aerodynamics of an aircraft if 6" are not there in the wind tunnel model that is feeding a computer for a flight simulator. If you can't handle being inside of .0005, stay out of the kitchen.
Phantom
If you are into being a Machinist . . All of the above coments are dead on, take them to heart, been there and done that. But the one thing that I would stress, is math. Without a working knowledge of Trig and plane Geometry you are going to be handicaped all your carrier. They are the fine line between being a machinist and a "Good" machinist. I spent 10 years as a Mold Maker, everything has an angle and an intersecting radius, you have to know how to handle that aspect of the job, it is not a guessing game. I have had leads tell guys to scribe it in and cut to the line. In the model shop I worked in, on some models that line was nearly 6" on a full size plane, makes a lot of difference to the aerodynamics of an aircraft if 6" are not there in the wind tunnel model that is feeding a computer for a flight simulator. If you can't handle being inside of .0005, stay out of the kitchen.
Phantom
M.D.Spencer
New member
Say old fella
Have you ever heard of a Fray Mill? Just a silly question. It's a neat mill. You also need tools...Maybe someone has said that already? Math is really good. No shop is going to put you in a job that they don't think you can handle. Don't make up something you can't do. Danti loved those kind of people. We had one guy that spent Five years on a Okuma mill center. Didn't know what a edge finder was. Were he came from they didn't use those things. He left. Always try to challenge yourself.
Have you ever heard of a Fray Mill? Just a silly question. It's a neat mill. You also need tools...Maybe someone has said that already? Math is really good. No shop is going to put you in a job that they don't think you can handle. Don't make up something you can't do. Danti loved those kind of people. We had one guy that spent Five years on a Okuma mill center. Didn't know what a edge finder was. Were he came from they didn't use those things. He left. Always try to challenge yourself.
A
AZLarry
Guest
I have only been a machinist for 13 years but have a made a few observations.
Don't get pigeon holed into one type of machine. Learn to run any and everything available. ie: manual lathe, manual mill, cnc lathe/mill/wire edm, hone machine and grinders (surface, centerless, OD/ID). Not to mention the latest software of cad and cam (up to 4 or 5 axis).
Learn to hold +/-.0002" (yes, four decimal places) on a manual lathe and mill for about five years, then get into the cnc stuff. Learn to read real aerospace or medical drawings that are four pages and have 45 different dimensions you have to hold tolerance with. Just to make one part.
High quality machine shops and machinists will always have a job. Bad times just thins the herd of the poorly run shops and button pushers.
Machining is not just a job, it's something I enjoy and have a deep interest in.
Don't get pigeon holed into one type of machine. Learn to run any and everything available. ie: manual lathe, manual mill, cnc lathe/mill/wire edm, hone machine and grinders (surface, centerless, OD/ID). Not to mention the latest software of cad and cam (up to 4 or 5 axis).
Learn to hold +/-.0002" (yes, four decimal places) on a manual lathe and mill for about five years, then get into the cnc stuff. Learn to read real aerospace or medical drawings that are four pages and have 45 different dimensions you have to hold tolerance with. Just to make one part.
High quality machine shops and machinists will always have a job. Bad times just thins the herd of the poorly run shops and button pushers.
Machining is not just a job, it's something I enjoy and have a deep interest in.
Now that is the proper outlook!
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M.D.Spencer
New member
I find their is
a lot of leg work when you make something for someone. Lots of good bullsh!tters out there. Me I'm a good Machinist and tool and die maker. I don't know everything. You gotta work with others. I like to call and talk to people. I do this all the time.
One is my first boss. Quit a Asshole to work for. Worked for him three times on record. The last time I went Danti tool. He said "leave your box, you'll be back!" I haven't been back. I still ask him question 20 years later.
One of the smartest people I new, was Old man Fica. Eighth grade education. Nine kids, wife died after the last kid. Single parent. Tought himself Calculus. He's dead now, but he left a legacy at Jackson and Church, Bay city shovels inc AuGres, MI. The aircraft caterpult system. You have a Piston. A barrel and point. Shuttle and various other pieces. This is the guts of what throws those planes off the ships. He designed all the fixtures, tooling, the different steps on how to machine, the whole system.
a lot of leg work when you make something for someone. Lots of good bullsh!tters out there. Me I'm a good Machinist and tool and die maker. I don't know everything. You gotta work with others. I like to call and talk to people. I do this all the time.
One is my first boss. Quit a Asshole to work for. Worked for him three times on record. The last time I went Danti tool. He said "leave your box, you'll be back!" I haven't been back. I still ask him question 20 years later.
One of the smartest people I new, was Old man Fica. Eighth grade education. Nine kids, wife died after the last kid. Single parent. Tought himself Calculus. He's dead now, but he left a legacy at Jackson and Church, Bay city shovels inc AuGres, MI. The aircraft caterpult system. You have a Piston. A barrel and point. Shuttle and various other pieces. This is the guts of what throws those planes off the ships. He designed all the fixtures, tooling, the different steps on how to machine, the whole system.
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dartplayer1
Guest
I have been a machinist for the same company (Kays Engineering) for the last 25 years we are a full time job shop plus we build the line of DeHoff and Eldorado gun drills there are jobs out there for skilled a machinist, but when we hire a new person we like them to have a basic knowledge ie know how to read a print, use their tool’s, know how to dial in a vise and how to tram a head in on a manual mill and some basic lathe skills. Because we like to train them in house the way we do things.
Along with doing machine work I have been the CNC programmer for the last 12 years but everyone of our machinist can and do write their own programs at the machine when they need to.
To my knowledge we are the only gun drill manufacturer that still scrape’s the bed ways, we have 4 men that can and do scrape everyday.
Along with doing machine work I have been the CNC programmer for the last 12 years but everyone of our machinist can and do write their own programs at the machine when they need to.
To my knowledge we are the only gun drill manufacturer that still scrape’s the bed ways, we have 4 men that can and do scrape everyday.
U
underpaid
Guest
Every block I ever squared had 6 sides so you must have been doing a stop sign or something. Did you really mean filed? As with an actual FILE? How could this possibly be square and true? (not to mention it would take forever to file out a saw cut) I can't even stand to deburr with a file unless absolutely neccesary.
This trade has been going down for years. I have been machining for 30 years and wages and benefits have been going down for just as long. While actual $/hr. have increased fourfold inflation has far outpaced it.
While doing a good job provides some satisfaction, faster is never fast enough in today's manufacturing. I set-up and program my own machines. Build fixturing. Run manual lathe and mill. Grind parts to within .0001" tolerance. And still get asked why you took 12 hours to make something they quoted for 4.
Just my 2-cents but if I had to do it with a file it would have taken 4 months.
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papapaul
Guest
The old man told the young vocational school graduate he was hiring:"They taught you how to be a carpenter. Now, I'm going to teach you how to make a living being a carpenter!".
bryan
Bryan Armatys
Machining
I've always be interested in machine work and have a VERY small lathe, and just bought a large Mill/Drill. I've been thinking about the NRA course that
Trinidad State Junior College has. It's basic, and geared towards gunsmithing, but any formal education is worth persuing.
Bryan
I've always be interested in machine work and have a VERY small lathe, and just bought a large Mill/Drill. I've been thinking about the NRA course that
Trinidad State Junior College has. It's basic, and geared towards gunsmithing, but any formal education is worth persuing.
Bryan
Butch Lambert
Active member
Bryan,
I understand Speedy is doing a great job at Trinidad.
Butch
I understand Speedy is doing a great job at Trinidad.
Butch
S
Signguy
Guest
I agree with you Bryan. I have looked at those classes for a couple of years now. I need to suck it up and get out your way.
I see you are right there close. I spent a cold 3 weeks there in the middle of the winter back in 1989 or close to it. We were putting all the new Chevron signs in there. Changed out the 76 truck stop to a Chevron also.
I remember the pass was closed and the truck stop was full of rigs running while the drivers kept warm in there trucks. Brings back memories.
Tim
I see you are right there close. I spent a cold 3 weeks there in the middle of the winter back in 1989 or close to it. We were putting all the new Chevron signs in there. Changed out the 76 truck stop to a Chevron also.
I remember the pass was closed and the truck stop was full of rigs running while the drivers kept warm in there trucks. Brings back memories.
Tim
bryan
Bryan Armatys
Butch and Tim
Speedy was at the Raton match and I spoke with him at length. They have 17 machines there, and the enrollment has increased to the point that they are doing nite classes, are in the process of putting together a "retail gun shop", and will soon be doing the hydro dip coatings to stocks and whatever. Students are now getting a well rounded education in the real world of the firearms industry.
Speedy has certainly changed the ways that TSJC is teaching. You can still learn how to use wood chizels to inlet a stock, but you can't do it and make a living...........................hense the mill. Get my drift?
By the way, those NRA classes cost about $300.00 and tooling can be bought on campus by non-students at great rates. Brownells is on board to a large extent, along with other companies.
I see this as a MAJOR turn-around from "craftsmanship" to "craftsmanship for profit".
Personally, I'm not interested in a career change, I just want the proper knowledge to be able to produce something to sell, or modify existing stuff to meet my needs and not RUIN it in the process.
Butch, Jackie, and others take feeds and speeds, coolant or not, and tool sharpening for granted...........it's second nature to you guys......but a BIG stumbling block to guys like me. Hell, I still havta think about which direction to turn the handle to move the table one way or the other, and the wrong move will ruin all your hard work!
I appreciate all you guys input on this forum, and maybe you knowledgeable guys could get with Wilbur and do a "Machining for Dummies" thing?
Lotsa people on BRC could use a bit of help, Basic help.
Bryan
Speedy was at the Raton match and I spoke with him at length. They have 17 machines there, and the enrollment has increased to the point that they are doing nite classes, are in the process of putting together a "retail gun shop", and will soon be doing the hydro dip coatings to stocks and whatever. Students are now getting a well rounded education in the real world of the firearms industry.
Speedy has certainly changed the ways that TSJC is teaching. You can still learn how to use wood chizels to inlet a stock, but you can't do it and make a living...........................hense the mill. Get my drift?
By the way, those NRA classes cost about $300.00 and tooling can be bought on campus by non-students at great rates. Brownells is on board to a large extent, along with other companies.
I see this as a MAJOR turn-around from "craftsmanship" to "craftsmanship for profit".
Personally, I'm not interested in a career change, I just want the proper knowledge to be able to produce something to sell, or modify existing stuff to meet my needs and not RUIN it in the process.
Butch, Jackie, and others take feeds and speeds, coolant or not, and tool sharpening for granted...........it's second nature to you guys......but a BIG stumbling block to guys like me. Hell, I still havta think about which direction to turn the handle to move the table one way or the other, and the wrong move will ruin all your hard work!
I appreciate all you guys input on this forum, and maybe you knowledgeable guys could get with Wilbur and do a "Machining for Dummies" thing?
Lotsa people on BRC could use a bit of help, Basic help.
Bryan