Annealing temp
- Thread starter REMY
- Start date
T
Tony C
Guest
Remy
Have you read this?
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jun96cases.html
Tony
Have you read this?
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jun96cases.html
Tony
Boyd Allen
Active member
Hornady has an annealing kit that uses this as an indicator.
475 DEGREE TEMPILAQ
475 DEGREE TEMPILAQ
Boyd Thats correct Honadys kit supplys a 475F tempilaq and to mark the case just below the case shoulder so as when the heat reaches 650F at the neck the heat that starts to flow down towards the head of the case would be around the 450F temp ,or at least i think this is the way its supposed to be ,some articles ive read state that a650F marker should be used if so where is the right point on the the case to be marked.
Remy
Remy
J
Jay Idaho
Guest
Tempstiks don't respond as quickliy as needed to indicate temp, they are intended for other purposes. You can use them to "wipe" across a surface to see if it is above the temp of the stick but not to determine temp. You can use Tempstik to see if a part has reached pre-heat when getting ready to weld it or to see if an aircraft tire is above a certain temp after a hot landing.
Templac is better for annealing, you can watch it change color and know when you are at a desired temp. Brass heats up too quickly and heat moves too fast to count on the temp crayons when annealing.
MSC has the all of the temp___ supplies and thinner for the liquid.
Templac is better for annealing, you can watch it change color and know when you are at a desired temp. Brass heats up too quickly and heat moves too fast to count on the temp crayons when annealing.
MSC has the all of the temp___ supplies and thinner for the liquid.
M
mysticplayer
Guest
I started using the tempi paint at 450F. This temp is way too low. The brass needs to reach 700 to 800F to change. Also, the paint leaves a hard nasty residue after it flashes off.
I quit using it after the first poor results.
I use the tempistick. I put a swab of 650F below the shoulder/neck junction. When it flashes off, into the cold water it goes. It most certainly is an indirect way to monitor temps and I truly can't say what my necks are heated to. Leaves no residue to clean off.
I can't put any indicator on the neck itself because the flame heat flashes it off immediately as the case is put into the flame.
The cases do show the typical colour change/purpling that you see on commercial brass. Seating pressure feels consistent and smooth when I feel they are done correctly. That's is close as I can get.
One thing I have noticed is that some brass heats up slower then others. This makes me wonder about the turntable type annealers. These work on the assumption that certain time in flame gets the job done. Could this be causing inconsistent peak temps?
I know that the temp stick flashes off so the temp at that point is the same.
For me, annealing is far from precise but it does keep me from splitting necks and seating has become much more consistent in feel. Groups have stayed the same so I can't say it is a bad thing.
However, it is very easy to go too hot and cook the brass. I do a spot test using my finger nails to try and squish the necks. If my nails bend before the neck moves, I consider them OK. If the neck moves without bending my finger nails, too soft.
If I wasn't so cheap and using wildcats, I would just toss the brass.
Be warned, that if you leave the case in the flame a few seconds after the temp flashes off, you will cook your necks. Finger soft - garbage can. It will actually look burnt black and not come off easily with steel wool.
Jerry
I quit using it after the first poor results.
I use the tempistick. I put a swab of 650F below the shoulder/neck junction. When it flashes off, into the cold water it goes. It most certainly is an indirect way to monitor temps and I truly can't say what my necks are heated to. Leaves no residue to clean off.
I can't put any indicator on the neck itself because the flame heat flashes it off immediately as the case is put into the flame.
The cases do show the typical colour change/purpling that you see on commercial brass. Seating pressure feels consistent and smooth when I feel they are done correctly. That's is close as I can get.
One thing I have noticed is that some brass heats up slower then others. This makes me wonder about the turntable type annealers. These work on the assumption that certain time in flame gets the job done. Could this be causing inconsistent peak temps?
I know that the temp stick flashes off so the temp at that point is the same.
For me, annealing is far from precise but it does keep me from splitting necks and seating has become much more consistent in feel. Groups have stayed the same so I can't say it is a bad thing.
However, it is very easy to go too hot and cook the brass. I do a spot test using my finger nails to try and squish the necks. If my nails bend before the neck moves, I consider them OK. If the neck moves without bending my finger nails, too soft.
If I wasn't so cheap and using wildcats, I would just toss the brass.
Be warned, that if you leave the case in the flame a few seconds after the temp flashes off, you will cook your necks. Finger soft - garbage can. It will actually look burnt black and not come off easily with steel wool.
Jerry
Tempil, Inc. actually recommends the use of the Tempil Stik for annealing. I've never used the Tempil Lac, but Jay knows what he's talking about...I'm sure it works fine.
The one I use is the 650 F. Tempil Stik. This isn't as high as what people in the metallurgical industry consider as 'annealed'..but when they speak of something being 'annealed', it means to a dead soft state..which we don't want for our use.
When I anneal the next bunch of cases for my HBR gun, I'm going to check them with a Raytek infared laser thermometer to verify my temps. These Raytek deals are pretty slick..handheld and require no contact between the unit and the part being meaured for temp. The one I'm gong to use belongs to one of my Drag Race pals. They use it in their dyno room to check the temp of individual header tubes when they're testing a motor that doesn't have thermocouple bungs welded into the headers for EGT (exhaust gas temp). They also use it to verify track and tire temps. They have a 1% +/- error factor, though.
Will still be interesting to see how it shakes out versus the Tempil product.
The one I use is the 650 F. Tempil Stik. This isn't as high as what people in the metallurgical industry consider as 'annealed'..but when they speak of something being 'annealed', it means to a dead soft state..which we don't want for our use.
When I anneal the next bunch of cases for my HBR gun, I'm going to check them with a Raytek infared laser thermometer to verify my temps. These Raytek deals are pretty slick..handheld and require no contact between the unit and the part being meaured for temp. The one I'm gong to use belongs to one of my Drag Race pals. They use it in their dyno room to check the temp of individual header tubes when they're testing a motor that doesn't have thermocouple bungs welded into the headers for EGT (exhaust gas temp). They also use it to verify track and tire temps. They have a 1% +/- error factor, though.
Will still be interesting to see how it shakes out versus the Tempil product.
After using Tempilac for a while, I now anneal by color. By in large the Tempilac worked, when it didn't, I hadn't gotten the case hot enough.
A case gets almost shiny when you get the right heat. It is also a lightish blue, but that shiny appearance is what works for me. If you get too hot, it will begin to dull -- but that's too hot.
If I have to go a while between annealing sessions, I'll use Tempilac for a few cases until my eye gets accustom for what to look for . . .
Quenching isn't suppose to matter for brass. But in spite of what the metallurgists say, I get better results if I dip the case in water right after the color is reached, still in the electric screwdriver.
A case gets almost shiny when you get the right heat. It is also a lightish blue, but that shiny appearance is what works for me. If you get too hot, it will begin to dull -- but that's too hot.
If I have to go a while between annealing sessions, I'll use Tempilac for a few cases until my eye gets accustom for what to look for . . .
Quenching isn't suppose to matter for brass. But in spite of what the metallurgists say, I get better results if I dip the case in water right after the color is reached, still in the electric screwdriver.
M
mysticplayer
Guest
Al, those temp guns sound really interesting. How fast can they give you a reading?
If it takes more then a second, the brass will cool off and drive the machine nuts. Can't really get a temp while it is immersed in the flame.
Look forward to your results.
Jerry
If it takes more then a second, the brass will cool off and drive the machine nuts. Can't really get a temp while it is immersed in the flame.
Look forward to your results.
Jerry
J
Jay Idaho
Guest
That is why I think that Tempstik cannot give you an accurate reading as to max temp you have reached. I've used Tempstik to test a piece of steel that I'm heating up that is a heat sink, to temper small parts by placing them on the hot steel block. Direct application of a flame would risk heating the small parts way above the desired draw temperature.
I'm not a welder or metallurigist, just an old toolmaker that has opinions.
M
mysticplayer
Guest
Direct flame heating as a form of heat source IS a concern and why I consider my approach low tech. However, that seems to be the most common approach and I haven't got a clue how else to anneal my necks.
I have heard of dipping in hot lead but that leads to its own problems.
Any thoughts and help would be appreciated.
Jerry
I have heard of dipping in hot lead but that leads to its own problems.
Any thoughts and help would be appreciated.
Jerry
Jerry, I checked the specs on the model I'm going to use. The response time is listed as 250 ms (1/4 of a second) @ 6" focus length and with a focal spot of .240 in the 'Close Focus' mode. I was wrong on the 1% +/- error. This model lists the error as .5% +/- which is half what I had originally posted. Some models have a longer response time, larger focus area and greater error factor.
I assumed the response time would be pretty short...when they've got a small block Chevy @ 8,500 rpm on the 'pump', I didn't figure they'd be wasting time waiting for a temp. to register.
-Al
3
300ack
Guest
"Use Charles method and do not look back"!!!
Joe Entrekin
New member
Well, I just finished re-annealing 400 pcs. of 30BR brass & wanted to share a couple of observations. I'm using the Ken Light machine & 2 torches. The first torch (preheat?) is a Bernzomatic propane torch & the final heating torch is a mapp gas torch, both purchased at Lowe's home center. We've been discussing methods to get the correct temperature, so that's what I mostly wanted to share. Seems like I remember someone else sharing the same thing awhile back. When I get the temperature correct (I think), a slight reddish ionization of the hot gases around the case neck takes place. If the torch is turned up a little, a heavy reddish ionization takes place & the cases come out too soft. If I don't get the temperature up to the slight reddish ionization point, the cases aren't annealed enough. Also, when done at the slight ionization temperature, there is no heavy tarnish on the necks, which is what Ken Light describes in his literature. If I run them too hot, I get an area of tarnish on the necks that is almost impossible to remove. Please chime in Al Nyhus & anybody else who has "studied" this. I'd also like to know how others position their torches relative to the turntable.