We asked some questions to determine the difference in thinking between the seasoned benchrest competitor and the casual accuracy minded individual...

To begin, three questions were posed to get the ball rolling:

1) What type of seating die do you use (threaded or not)?  If it's
an unusual or custom die add that to your answer along with why
you use such a die.

2) What method and tools do you use to determine seating depth and what do you do when changing bullets?

3) In your opinion, how important is neck tension?  Consider this
question in terms of the degree of tension and in terms of
consistent tension from case to case.  If possible, include your
reasoning.

Six seasoned competitors responded as did a number of self identified accuracy nuts.  Names of the accuracy nuts are withheld by request (not all but enough).

Here is what they had to say - accuracy nuts first:

 

1) I guess I have all three, I have threaded dies from RCBS, Wilson and Lee Loaders.

I have had good luck with RCBS and some of my best loads are produced with lee loaders, but by far the best is the Wilson.  I was taught on lee loaders and then acquired a press and have stepped up to an arbor press with Wilson dies.

  

2) I initially set the dies with dummy rounds by trial and error then use a stoney point bullet comparator to measure case length to the ogive and use that to adjust the dies if changing bullets.

  

3) I think consistency of neck tension is very important.  As to the amount of neck tension I think the amount varies with the cartridge and the use it is intended for.

 

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1) I use both Wilson micrometer dies and Redding comp seater dies. My number one criteria (apart from making straight cartridges) is that it has a micrometer on it. I'm about to order my first set of custom dies from Neil Jones.

 

I don't yet have a concentricity gauge, so my preference is based on convenience. I prefer an arbor press and dies for small cartridges 'cause I can pick it up and move it over to a more comfortable place to sit. I'll usually just use the co-ax press and a threaded die for longer cartridges (.243 Winchester length and greater). Once I get a concentricity gauge, I'll start weeding out the things that don't make straight cartridges.

 

2) Just a Stoney Point OAL gauge. Wherever it measures to (with several repeated measurements) becomes a reference point. Unfortunately, I don't know if that point is in the lands or at the lands. Regardless, I wind up with a repeatable reference point.

 

3) I can only go from what I've read, I don't have any experimental data to work with. Neck tension is apparently very important. I haven't seen anyone test this, but I would imagine that the criticality of neck tension depends on whether or not you are jammed into the lands. To my untrained-in- physics mind, it would seem that the only benefit of neck tension is to retain the pressure inside the case longer to lead to a faster, more consistent burn of the powder. If that is the only benefit, then being jammed in the lands would diminish the need for neck tension as the force required to move the bullet in the neck would be relatively inconsequential compared to the force required to push the bullet into the rifling. However, greater neck tension may help ensure that the bullet is jammed into the lands straighter.

 

If the above line of reasoning is even close to reality, then consistent neck tension either ensures that your charge builds up to the same pressure before the bullet starts moving or the bullet is consistently placed into the lands the same way each time.

 

So, even if the above is a crock, it's enough of a justification for me to take the advice of other shooters and jump through the extra hoops necessary to make sure that I have sufficient and consistent neck tension, not too mention spend a few extra dollars for the force measurement option on my K&M arbor press.

 

As to how important it is, I haven't got a clue as to how it compares to the myriad of other factors that affect accuracy. All I know is that if I didn't care about the extra bit of consistency that I (presumably) get from it, I'd just buy a Dillon and hammer out rounds. In fact, I might just start buying the bulk ammo from Cabela's and enjoy shooting at rocks.

 

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1) I use a threaded, Redding Competition die...I started with the manual Wilson die.....worked fine but the Redding is easier to adjust, quicker and I think just as precise 

 

2) I use the old fashioned bullet in a slightly tight neck, chamber it and carefully remove it.....4-5 times to get an average, usually repeatable within 002-003 if the neck isn't too loose. Redo this for each bullet change. 

 

3) I believe neck tension is a factor, but I don't see any differences between 258-2585-259 necks in my 262 rifles...haven't looked

 

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1) I use a Redding comp. seating die threaded. 6mm PPC.I use the Redding comp. die because of the sliding bushing that centers the points and ease of adjustment.

 

2) When I first started out I used a Stoney point gauge and then learned to split the neck apply point long and chamber cartridge, remove and measure. I have never changed bullets. I stated out with Barts and still using them.

 

3) I always felt that consistency was most important than the amount of tension. I had always heard about pros just stating bullets and letting chamber seat the points. So I went the consistency route.

 

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1) I use threaded dies, and as a pistol shooter a progressive press, carbide sizer and a carbide taper crimp in the last slot.  When I load for my custom AR-15 target rifle, Les Baer .223 Super Varmint, I weigh charges, and use a threaded RCBS competition seating die allowing micrometer adjustment of the seating depth, and a single stage press.  I don't seat into the lands, still use the listed C.O.L., but am aware of the potential accuracy improvement.

 

2) I load to the prescribed C.O.L. in the load data book.  If I change bullets, and the C.O.L. changes I reset the seating die.  If I were to seat to the lands, I would seat a bullet into an empty unprimed fire formed case  a little long, and try to close the bolt without a lot of pressure.  I would keep moving the bullet down a few thou at a time in my seater die till the bolt closed with just a bit of a bind, all the time looking at the marks made by the lands on the bullet.  With the bullet just touching the lands, I would start testing group size as I seated deeper into the lands, and just off the lands in 5 thou increments.

 

3) When you whack the tail end of a bullet with 50,000+ PSI I do not believe neck tension has a dang thing to do with accuracy.  What I do feel is important is that there is enough neck tension to keep the bullet from moving in the neck before firing and that everything remains fairly consistent.  I.E. Same type case, sized the same, same charge weight of powder, primer, seating depth, and the bullet seated square to the case, etc. 

 

Let's see:  A bullet that has base surface area of say a typical .308 has an area of Pi x radius squared or .154 X .154 X 3.14159, or 0.07450594844 square inch.  If it takes for example 15 lbs. of force to seat a bullet, it would take approximately the same to un seat it.  By my calculations, to reach 15 lbs. of force it would take an internal pressure of 201.326 PSI to exert a 15 lb. force on the end of that bullet.  (15 divided by the surface area of the bullet, 0.07450594844 = 201.326)  Seems to me that the bullet is going to move just slightly below that 50,000+ PSI developed in modern cartridges.  (said with tongue in cheek and hope my math is close) Probably before the primer finishes going pop. 

 

Gulp... 

 

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1) I use a Forester micrometer seater on my 6br.  On my 223 I use Lee Collet dies. 

 

2) I use a full length sized case with a tiny bit of neck tension, seat the bullet very long, insert into the barrel very gingerly and do this about 3 times and put the calipers to it each time and average.  That’s on the 6br. On the 223 I have a barrel gizzie that my smith made for me that is just the neck and shoulder of the reamer, with 1/4 of the area milled away so you can see what you are doing. 

 

3) I think it is very important, but at this point of my “accuracy shooting career" I am at a loss as to how to obtain anything consistent.  I personally like to run with a very light neck tension.  I generally seat the bullets long and let the lands determine the exact OAL. 

 

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1) My seating dies as of now is a threaded Redding die I use this die because I’m new to highly accurate shooting/reloading and do not own an arbor press now and at the time of die purchase wasn’t sure exactly how the non threaded dies worked.

 

2) I base my seating depth off of jam measurement to get jam I take a sized case with no primer or powder and seat a bullet very long I then chamber the round in my rifle and measure from base of case to ogive of bullet using Davidson’s attachments on a dial caliper I write the measurement down for that bullet I put the same bullet in my press and lower the handle and turn in my seating depth adjuster till it touches the bullet then on my first loaded round ill adjust the depth stem till I get .003 shorter or what ever measurement I’m looking for. I have one dummy round for every different bullet I have ever shot so I have a reference to go back to as well as written documentation.

 

3) Neck tension seems to have varying importance from powder to powder in my particular case I was using light neck tension with the powder combination I was using and getting decent groups, I went with a little more neck tension and groups improved noticeably as far as consistency from case to case I really have no way of checking that other than feel when I’m seating so if I feel a noticeable difference when seating whether it be stiff or light pressure I mark the case and see what it does at the range compared to others.  

 

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1) Wilson, not threaded.  Influenced by the Sinclair catalog.

 

2) I began about a year ago using a Stoney Point tool and a 6” Caliper with the Stoney Point adapter.  1 week ago I took the firing pin out of my new Kelbly and put in a case with bullet and basically gently jammed the bullet into the rifling.  Difference was .020” between the two methods. Using Bruno’s New 68gr 00.

 

3) To answer your question ‘I don’t know” I’m new and I am doing what I believe is good advice. Since I have not yet competed in my first match, and my Kelbly is only about 6 mo old. As a beginner I have been reading a bunch (your site every day at Noon) and PS (Precision Shooting) and have gravitated to what I believe is the middle of the road, right now. I’m a cautious reloader.  The necks are .0086” thick Checked in 8 places with a Mitutoyo tubing mic.

 

I am using Vitavouri N-133, 28.5 grs I understand the Vitavouri likes neck tension.  I am using .003” reduction sizing as this is what was listed in the Sinclair catalog along with speaking with ‘The Guys’ at Wilson. I am using a Harrell full length resizing die to bump the shoulder with Wilson bushings.

 

I turn the necks with a ‘Pumpkin’ set up.  I bought his mini lathe and the pumpkin neck turner.  Why?  I was referred to your site to look under accessories. ‘Benchrest Toys.’  I have a .262” neck and turn to .0086”wall thickness using Lapua .220R brass from Bruno’s.   So far with my new Bruno 00, 68 gr bullets I am able to shoot in the 1’s.  But this will change with wind, mirage, & only 7 minutes, etc.  1st match 2/25/06 at St. Louis Benchrest.  OH Boy! Hope this helps.

 

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 1. I use both a Redding competition bullet seating die (threaded) and a Wilson micrometer top bullet seater.  Redding is used in reloading room while Wilson hand seater is used primarily when I'm reloading at the range. I prefer the Redding competition bullet seating die because I get less runout than with the Wilson seater.

 

2. First, I determine the "jam" length by inserting a bullet long into an unprimed case and chambering it.  I use a Starrett dial caliper and Davidson seating depth checker to measure from the base of case to the ogive of the bullet and record this as the "jam" length.  I do this a couple of times to check for consistent measurements.  Then I back off the jam length a few thousands at a time and see what seating depth my rifle likes with the particular bullet being used.  Most of my loads have the bullet just about .010" into the lands.  When I change to a different bullet, I repeat the same procedure over again.

 

3. I have tried using various neck tensions from .001 to .003 and could not discern any appreciable difference in group size at the target, at least with my live varmint rifles. What I do try to achieve, however, is consistent tension, usually about .0015 tension. No particular reason why I use this tension other than it’s easy to seat bullets and it’s sufficient to hold the bullet from sticking in the lands if I need to extract a live cartridge from the chamber.   It's been my experience that the more consistent I can make the ammunition, the better performance (smaller groups) I get at longer ranges (e.g., 500 yards), so I try to make not only the tension consistent but also case weight, seating depth, powder charge, etc. consistent from case to case.

 

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1) Exclusively Redding Competition Dies with TiN bushings in a Rock Chucker press.   Although I read most everyone uses the Wilson type, I found them to be fiddley little devils due to their size and the fact that they move about a lot. This said, I do not have big hands nor any condition preventing me from using them.   I have found the Redding dies to be very good and when a loaded round is run over with the NECO tool, the little GEM dial does not move. From that and that alone, I concluded that the Wilson type of die could not be any more accurate. I have no science to back this up however and it is just an opinion.

 

2) Given the puritans, dare I say it?  It is only an opinion after all and opinions are but that. They are not facts.   I take a prepared case, gently run it over an expander mandrel, drill and tap the case head to accept the Stony Point tool and go to town. I use the tool gently with a Dewey rod down the barrel and I think the feel is quite good. New barrels with sharp lands are easy compared to those with many shots through them and I can get 3 measurements the same with a little practice.  This is what I was taught nearly 10 years ago when I started shooting. I have always done this and it works for me.    I have also used the method of seating a bullet long, closing and opening the bolt and measuring the length to ogive, with the Stony Point tool.  I have found that this figure is always different from the former, and I reason that this may well be due to the neck tension imparted from the sizing die onto the case neck. As the bolt is closed, the lands force the bullet aft. However, I am undecided as to whether more neck tension causes the bullet to be seated deeper into the lands or pushed further aft. I know not the properties of the bullet as to how much force it takes to engrave it with land marks as opposed to the force required to move it aft into the case.  I have tried lubing with MOLY, the inside case necks and different bushings to overcome this but too loose a bushing and the bullet stays in the barrel. Too tight.... well who knows what you are measuring? I have yet to decide how to proceed with this so more often that not use the first method.   I seldom change bullets. I speak to others (or read what others are using), buy a heap of 'the' pill to use and away I go. I think custom pills are all much of a muchness and none are really any better than the others.

 

3) I have no firm opinion as to how much is 'enough' at the moment. This is an area of constant discussion and I remember reading Gezy Nagy's experiments in the BR Primer about it. Other articles gave up that some used next to no tension, others 'thumb' or 'palm' tension and still others tight as the proverbial. Because of that, and in consultation with those I consider knowledgeable on the subject, I use a bushing 2 thou smaller than the chamber neck diameter. Safety is a consideration. I have used 3 thou and more but on paper, I cannot show any appreciable difference in accuracy. I can however, show higher velocities over the Chrony.   I am a firm believer that consistency is the name of the game. Consistency in neck tension is something I pay careful attention to.  I am very careful in my case preparation and am constantly monitoring case measurements, especially in the neck area. If a case measures different from the others, it gets thrown out.  Before seating bullets, I lube the necks with MOLY and can feel any difference in the seating tension I believe.  Given that I do not use Wilson style hand dies, I cannot conclude there is any less 'feel' in the Rock Chucker setup I use. But, logic would certainly have it to be the case.  

Jerry Sharrett

1) I use a Wilson arbor press die customized to my 40 degree PPC.

 

2) I just back off 0.03" or so and then with the firing pin out start seating till I get the impression I want on the bullet nose. I go for a slight whisker mark by ALL lands.

 

3) Some. Especially on V133. On 8208 and IMR4198 not much. Too much tension does cause a bunch of runout. I seat with an arbor press and if the tension does not feel the same on all the cases in that batch I scrap that brass.

 

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Jackie Schmidt

1) I use a Redding Seating Die that I have modified by making my own sliding

sleeve assembly that I reamed with my chamber reamer. I like the Redding because of its ease of adjustment. Many shooters have the misconception that since you use it in a press, that it is not as precision as a hand die. But if you examine the sliding sleeve assembly of a Redding Die, you will notice that it is nothing more than its own chamber die.  That micrometer knob on top is nothing more than a precision stop.

When using the Redding, always make sure that the shell holder contacts the bottom of the die firmly, so you are relying on the die to establish the critical depth, rather than the linkage of the press. In fact, all the press does is furnish the horsepower to insert the case and remove it.

 

2) I get the rough seating depth by using my chamber "thingy" that is reamed with my reamer. I then seat a bullet that has been polished with never dull. I examine the marks with a 5x loop. With the bullet and barrels I shoot  now, (Bruno OO Boatail and .237 4-groove Krieger), I want the marks to  be about twice as long as they are wide. Once this is established, I measure a set point on the ogive to the base, using my own home made tool, (like the factory ones), and dial calipers.  Once I establish this measurement I rarely change it. Since I set my barrels back about .020 about every 300 rounds or so, the marks always stay pretty fresh.

 

3) I never change neck tension. The die I have does not even have a bushing. It is a Redding full length die that I bored the neck portion out to .265, to use with my .269 neck. This die bumps the shoulder, full length sizes the case body, sizes the neck, and decaps the primer in one stroke. One other modification I did was to turn the bottom of the die to about 1/16 inch wall thickness for 1/4 inch of length. I then pressed a steel ring over this to tighten it up. This allowed me to then polish it out to size the base of my cases exactly the way I want. I ended up with a die that is case hardened and does a good job of full length sizing. As to how important neck tension is, I believe you need to insure that you have enough for the combination you are shooting, and that it be consistent from case to case. But changing neck tension as a tuning tool, in my opinion, is way over rated. If a combination is that finicky, you might get it to shoot a while, but I doubt it will stay there.   As you might guess, I tune with the powder charge, and of course, my tuners. If it is of any note, I doubt I changed my powder weight more than .2 grn one way or the other for the entire last season of shooting. But since, as of right now, I will not be able to change my tuner setting at the line, I might have to re-think my tactics.

 

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Bill Gammon 

 

1) I use a Wilson seat die in stainless with the calibrated top. When in my trailer I use an arbor press to seat the bullets. Why? The stainless is basically moisture proof, the top is calibrated so if I am seating at 2.089 and want to extend or draw back in the seating depth by .010 it is simple. I know roughly how many marks it takes to reach the +.010 or -.010. You still have to double check with a good set of calibrators but so far it has been right on. 

 

 2) I have tried the various gadgets for determining seating depth over the years and I still keeping coming back to the steel wool and a Davidson seating checker. I don't use the base just the nose piece. Go around the bullet with the steel wool, insert the primerless and powderless case, (that is very important, EH!) and look for the scratch mark on the bullet, which is easy to see. Sure it might take a few bullets, 4 or 5 to get the exact touching depth but when you are sitting there with 2000 bullets, what's 4 or 5? Using your trusty calibers, measure the base to ogive with your seating checker. Say it measures 2.089 from the base to where the lands touch. Guess what? 2.099 puts you .010 into the lands and 2.069 puts you off the lands by .030 how much more accurate can you get then that. Changing bullets same deal. I keep very good records on every shot that goes through the barrel along with all of the measurements. 

 

3) Well I am going to get into trouble on this one! #1 I have a hard time believing that using a .259 button is better then a .258, or visa versa. Think about this for a second, when you touch that trigger you unleash 65,000 lbs to the square inch of pressure inside that pc of brass. The neck of that brass measure roughly .0085 per side. I don't believe for one second that kind of pressure gives a rats ass on a pc of .0085 brass whether it was sized with a .259 button or what ever. In my opinion the only time it would make a difference is if you were jamming the bullet into the lands and if you were, you would want to use a .009 with a .258 button, even then?? Consistent tension case to case? Again you are talking 65,000 lbs pushing against a pc of brass .0085 thick 

 

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Ron Hoehn

 

1) I believe the best way to get the straightest loaded round is with a "straight-line bullet seater" and an arbor press. It can be a Wilson steel die, a Wilson Stainless steel die with a micrometer top, or one of JLC's "Top-of-the-line" Stainless dies or one from Sinclair, with the micrometer top. The only thing wrong with all these dies is that they have to be made large enough to accept the largest cases out there, so the only thing better, in my opinion is a custom seater, made with the reamer used to chamber the barrel, and one that uses a adjustable micrometer on the top as a plunger, (easy to adjust).

 

2) No need for any fancy tools here, and in fact, all they can do is give you some bad information. It is so simple to load a "Dummy" round, lightly polish the bullet with 0000 steel wool, measure the over-all-length, and chamber it in the rifle. ) (Remember: Dummy round has no primer or powder in the case). Do this with light neck tension, set the bullet out "long" on purpose, and let the rifling push the bullet back into the case. Do this 4-5 time so you can eliminate any "false readings". Measure the OAL after each time, and when you feel good about the measurement you have, you can put the round in your seater, loosen the adjusting screw that holds the plunger or drift assembly, and gently turn the plunger down until you feel it touch your loaded round. Now you need to seat it about .006" deeper to start, and then you can "play" with different seating depths to see what your rifle likes. (A good way to set up a non-micrometer top seater is to use shims between the plunger and the base. It is very easy to add and subtract shims to change seating depths without loosing your original setting.) * Keep notes, as each different bullet will have a different "jamb" length, and even bullets from the same supplier may vary from lot - to - lot. Another point to remember is that the amount of bullet engagement is always changing as the barrel wears! You will want to check the amount of engagement at least every 200-300 rounds.

 

3) Neck tension is very important, not so much in how much or how little, but in the uniformity from round to round. When you are seating your bullet, each round should feel the same. You can try different bushings to get different seating pressures, and let the rifle "dictate" what it likes best. Different neck tension is a very subtle way of tuning a rifle. Again, there is no "Best" neck tension, just the best for that barrel / rifle / bullet combination.

 

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Bart Sauter

1) Carstensen bullet seater (not threaded). I like it because of the adjustable clicks. It makes changing seating depth quick and easy.

 

2) I always start by determining the “Jam Length”.  This is done by seating a  bullet long in  the case and letting the rifle lands push it back when the  bolt is closed (empty  case of course). I use a standard set of 6 inch calibers with a Davidson attachment to measure off of the ogive.  I always start at Jam and work the seating depth backwards when tuning or testing a new barrel.  If I try a new bullet I start all over and determine what the jam is for that bullet and start working backwards.

 

3) Consistent neck tension is very important.  As for how much neck tension (given that you have consistent neck tension) I consider this to be the last step in tweaking/tuning a load. The order of importance being seating depth, powder charge, and then neck tension. The reasoning is I can give you seating depth that no matter what powder charge or neck tension your gun won’t shoot.   My normal setup is 257 bushing with a 262 neck with cases turning to .085.

 

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Gary Ocock

1) I use a custom die that I made 25 years ago. At that time I was learning how to use a lathe and a mill from a friend and so I looked for any Br projects that would serve two purposes. To continue to learn how to use the machines and at the same time get a custom product that I made and use. I guess I was lucky in that this seating die is the same one I use today and it will load a 6ppc round with usually less than .001 of run out. Run out is measured by holding the base of the case on roller bearings and the tip of the bullet in an arbor then putting a .0001 dial indicator somewhere on the bullet usually around the neck area. You then spin the loaded round and let the indicator show the loaded run out. The smaller the better.

 

2) I only shoot the 6ppc, I shoot my own bullets and I chamber my own barrels with known reamers. I do however always check my seating depth on a new barrel. I use about .001 on neck tension. To check a new barrel I will size my case, seat the bullet by hand or just start the bullet into the case with my seating die and then chamber the round (almost always a dummy round, no primer or powder) and let the chamber push the bullet into the case. I then use what is commonly called an ogive checker, (a piece of old barrel that has a beveled hole for the bullet to slide into) attached to a caliper to measure the jammed bullet on this case. Measurement is from someplace on the bullet to the base of the case. This measurement is just a number, it has no relationship to anything it's just a reference number.  This number is what is commonly called the jam. This number is where my chamber will push the bullet back into the case and the bullet is jammed into the lands with about .001 of neck tension. If I were to change bullets I would do the same as above. I will use shim stock on my seating die  about .050 in increments of .010 or 5 shims to give me this jam measurement. If I want to seat the bullet a bit deeper into the case and thus change the pressure I simply remove some shim and shoot for group, I do this quite frequently to test for it's effect on my groups.

 

3) First I must say that I almost always shoot boattail bullets (my own) I've been shooting them for over 30 years. I THINK that neck tension isn't as important with a BT as with a flat base bullet. I almost always set my necks on my brass so that I have  between .0025 and .003 of total air space around the loaded round in the neck area. My chambers are .262 and my loaded round is about .259+. I use a button in my size die that will give me about .001 of neck tension when the case is sized. I also almost never clean the inside of my necks with anything. It seems that as I shoot the brass the neck tension becomes even more uniform as a result of not neck cleaning. I think the burnt powder acts as a slight lubricant and thus the tension to seat the bullet seems to be very uniform as I shoot the brass. I usually use 15/20 cases per weekend (2 Gun) and after the match relegate that brass as practice stuff. Bottom line I haven't found much difference with neck tension with my setup and my bullet in my chambers. There are way to many other things for me to worry about.

 

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