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sgt_jamez
02-23-2018, 03:05 PM
I am a newbie to benchrest type shooting. I'm using a Sinclair Competition rest, a Protektor DR rear bag with 1/2" spacing, and a Savage BR stock (bottom of butt is flat and basically parallel to the forearm). Looking through the scope and running the rifle back and forth, the crosshairs always track down and right. The vertical I get... its a function of the stock being thicker as it nears the palm swell and that causes the the rifle to raise in the rear bag during recoil. I would imagine the yaw is bag alignment, but is that alignment of the rear bag to the front rest? The front bag doesn't sit straight? Rear bag not straight? I haven't yet found information that clearly defines the accepted methods for aligning the bags and troubleshooting tracking issues. Not being able to solve this on my own is making me feel rather dumb and I've considered my rifle might make a better lamp stand than what I am doing with it! Grrrr... And tips, pointers, methodologies etc would save my rifle from wearing a lampshade. Thanks all!

garandman
02-23-2018, 03:48 PM
I think the problem is yer over thinking it. :)

How's the gun shoot? That's really all that matters (to me, anyway.)

I use a bipod up front, a rear bag, point the gun at the target, and pull the trigger. It it hits the target and makes nice little groups, I'm good. I don't worry about bad alignment. I've never had bag alignment affect anything.

retired
02-23-2018, 04:15 PM
I can't wait for the line up of replies!


I . I've never had bag alignment affect anything.

garandman
02-23-2018, 04:17 PM
I can't wait for the line up of replies!

:)

0.36 MoA repeatable groups. Good enuf fer me. YMMV. :)

David Halblom
02-23-2018, 05:02 PM
:)

0.36 MoA repeatable groups. Good enuf fer me. YMMV. :)

acceptable in benchrest. Will kill Prairie Dogs and woodchucks. Will put you in bottom 25% in a BR match. And even if you are not competing, why settle for poor performance.

That being said, as far as tracking, you need to check your bag set up for straight and square. If it isn't, why? Move the back bag around, a little at a time, and see what happens. If it gets better, but only to a point, the next issue is is the the stock straight? Any BR shooter with some time in grade on this board can tell you about a stock they have owned with twist or crookedness they have owned. If it is the stock, the only thing you can do is machine it straight or get a different stock.

David

garandman
02-23-2018, 05:44 PM
acceptable in benchrest. Will kill Prairie Dogs and woodchucks. Will put you in bottom 25% in a BR match. And even if you are not competing, why settle for poor performance.



David

0.36 MoA is "poor performance?"

I guess we have different purposes for our guns. I don't own them to comepte in benchrest matches.


More to the point, you totally missed my point.... which is "How is your shooting?" OP never said. If his shooting is on target / tight groups, who cares what his technique is?

Not me. Do what works.

retired
02-23-2018, 06:31 PM
So garandman,
Did you every read the name of the site or the forum ?
Just checking 'cause there is a factory rifle forum.
Heck there are even sites and forums that think 0.36 is great.

Mike Bryant
02-23-2018, 07:39 PM
When I have a benchrest rifle that I consider is tracking, it's coming back on target when I push it back up to the stop after firing it and reloading ready to shoot the next shot. It will just about be back on point of aim almost to the point that re-aiming isn't necessary. To get to this point, everything has to work together. The cases have to close in the rifle with very little to no resistance, the bolt has to open without any extraction problems, the size die has to work with the chamber and the stock can't be pushing the sandbags out of alignment. Not to be snobby, but I take it that your action is a Savage. There is so much going on with the Savage action with the firing mechanism that I doubt if you could ever get it to that point. If you want the stock to move from the center of the top record target to the center of the bottom target, more than likely that will take some work on getting the butt of the stock to align with the sides of the forend. It will be a matter of building up the butt or reducing it to get it to where it aligns. When Jim Borden was making his carbon fiber benchrest stocks, he built up the butt and milled the butt to align it with the forend. The Scarbrough and Scoville stocks are build to align similarly. The sides and butt are milled to align which is a lot of why they are as expensive as they are, besides the amount of hand labor in them and partially why you'll see so many of them on the firing line. The other part of why you see so many is because of the follow the leader mentality so common in benchrest. People shoot what works and if someone or a lot of people are winning using XYX equipment, pretty soon everyone is using XYZ equipment.

sgt_jamez
02-23-2018, 08:30 PM
Yes, my rifle is a Savage. Home-brewed 6BR that started life as a .22-250. I don't take your comment as snobby. I know the Savage action leaves a lot to be desired in terms of... well a lot of things really but specifically bolt feel. But this is what I have so I am trying to make the best of it.

How's my shooting? I can shoot in the .3s regularly. Mid .2s on better days and high .1s occasionally. I am not a competition shooter as yet but I am trying to get there. I am definitely in the middle of downtown "I don't even know what I don't know".

I read a lot and all the factors of stiffness of the bags, what sand to use, how much forend overhang and all that... I do get a bit lost. I figured I'd start with trying to make my rifle come straight back in the bags and I cant even get that right. It does come back pretty close to POA when pinned to the front stop but not always. I assume that's a fault of my bag stuffing.

Is the stock straight? Hmm... Since it's a Savage factory f-class stock, I'd have to guess "maybe" at best. I don't think I have the tools to check it.

So I guess a secondary question would be if the rifle is not recoiling dead straight backwards, is that offset during recoil going to affect POI?

Sure, I quite likely am over-thinking this. I have been accused of that very thing on many occasions. It sure would be great if I could have some of the "old heads" sit down at my rig and show me what I can do to tighten up my ship as it were.

Maybe I should stop trying to milk Ferrari performance from a Hyundai?

jackie schmidt
02-23-2018, 08:39 PM
There is no "bag Gun" setup that will allow the Rifle to stay dead on target as the Rifle is moved back in the bags. There are way too many variables. That venue is reserved for true return to battery Rail Guns.

The main aim is to have the Rifle recoil in the same manner and come back reasonably close to the point of aim after each shot if shooting Group. In Score, it's not that big a deal because you have to move the Rifle to the next bull anyway. But, You do want the Rifle to ride the bags in the same manner shot after shot.

David Halblom
02-23-2018, 08:41 PM
0.36 MoA is "poor performance?"

I guess we have different purposes for our guns. I don't own them to comepte in benchrest matches.


More to the point, you totally missed my point.... which is "How is your shooting?" OP never said. If his shooting is on target / tight groups, who cares what his technique is?

Not me. Do what works.

You sir, miss the point of this forum. We who spend our time here are here to help people like the original poster get EVERYTHING they can out of their rifle. We have "been there, done that" in spades. Your .36xx rifle is fine for what you want. But for those who are looking for true accuracy, it is a real dud.

Tracking is an aspect of true accuracy that requires a bit if work. It can be simply setting up bags and rest straight and true or it can be a bad stock/action/rifle issue. Takes a bit of work to figure it out and fix. Hence, the answer I originally gave. Your requirements for black rifles are one thing. What it takes to make a truly accurate rifle for shooting targets is another thing completely. If you have a hard time understanding that, my condolences. Think of this, a NRA target is 2" minute of angle for the 10 ring. An IBS or NBRSA target is 1/2 minute of angle for the 10 ring. Any distance on all those targets. I do believe that 1/2 minute of angle is just a bit more accurate, by at least a factor of 4. Wins in my book.
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?98545-Visalia-CA-Match-Results-Feb#top,

Greyfox
02-23-2018, 09:26 PM
So garandman,
Did you every read the name of the site or the forum ?
Just checking 'cause there is a factory rifle forum.
Heck there are even sites and forums that think 0.36 is great.

Nice to have you back Mike. How have you been?

Rick

garandman
02-23-2018, 10:38 PM
So garandman,
Did you every read the name of the site or the forum ?
Just checking 'cause there is a factory rifle forum.
Heck there are even sites and forums that think 0.36 is great.


THIS site is called the benchrest site, and this forum is the benchrest forum.

There is ANOTHER forum here for competition.

I own neither pure competition rifles, nor factory rifles.

You should take your own advice and READ - this forum title, and the words I actually post.... attempting to actually comprehend them.

Cuz you haven't done so yet.

garandman
02-23-2018, 11:13 PM
Plainly stated.... I'd advise the OP to NOT worry about "tracking" unless he shoots the rifle, and has a problem with accuracy.

And then it'd be down the list of things I'd worry about.... after things like load development, trigger, trigger pull, etc.

Don't anticipate problems that may not even exist. Shoot the rifle. Worry more about ACTUAL group size, repeatability than whether anyone thinks his technique is perfect textbook.

If it works, then its good technique. No matter whther its "orthodox" or not.

pipeline60
02-23-2018, 11:16 PM
When I have a benchrest rifle that I consider is tracking, it's coming back on target when I push it back up to the stop after firing it and reloading ready to shoot the next shot. It will just about be back on point of aim almost to the point that re-aiming isn't necessary. To get to this point, everything has to work together. The cases have to close in the rifle with very little to no resistance, the bolt has to open without any extraction problems, the size die has to work with the chamber and the stock can't be pushing the sandbags out of alignment. Not to be snobby, but I take it that your action is a Savage. There is so much going on with the Savage action with the firing mechanism that I doubt if you could ever get it to that point. If you want the stock to move from the center of the top record target to the center of the bottom target, more than likely that will take some work on getting the butt of the stock to align with the sides of the forend. It will be a matter of building up the butt or reducing it to get it to where it aligns. When Jim Borden was making his carbon fiber benchrest stocks, he built up the butt and milled the butt to align it with the forend. The Scarbrough and Scoville stocks are build to align similarly. The sides and butt are milled to align which is a lot of why they are as expensive as they are, besides the amount of hand labor in them and partially why you'll see so many of them on the firing line. The other part of why you see so many is because of the follow the leader mentality so common in benchrest. People shoot what works and if someone or a lot of people are winning using XYX equipment, pretty soon everyone is using XYZ equipment.
They don't call them "Savages" for nothing.....

virg
02-24-2018, 12:43 AM
Is to attend bench rest matches and observe and learn. You'll find a great bunch of guys there that will answer your questions with patience and be willing to let you observe what they consider important improvements to your equipment. Don't be disappointed if they find your equipment to be performing at its best; but still not good enough for serious bench rest competition. If you stick with this sport, you'll find things that you never thought would be important to a truly accurate rifle. And you will also find that much of the advise you got from well meaning folks as regards extreme rifle accuracy was totally wrong.

At the matches when you see some of the groups constantly shot in the "two's" and sometimes "one's" you will come to realize how they got there.

Good luck...and go to matches. Take your present rig and have some fun.

garandman
02-24-2018, 10:15 AM
Is to attend bench rest matches and observe and learn. You'll find a great bunch of guys there that will answer your questions with patience and be willing to let you observe what they consider important improvements to your equipment. Don't be disappointed if they find your equipment to be performing at its best; but still not good enough for serious bench rest competition. If you stick with this sport, you'll find things that you never thought would be important to a truly accurate rifle. And you will also find that much of the advise you got from well meaning folks as regards extreme rifle accuracy was totally wrong.

At the matches when you see some of the groups constantly shot in the "two's" and sometimes "one's" you will come to realize how they got there.

Good luck...and go to matches. Take your present rig and have some fun.

That's good advice. RESULTS matter. See what it is that produces the groups you want by other shooters. Shooting is not a mathematical formula to be learned from a textbook, or on the internet. It happens by actual shooting.

Anticipating problems will drive ya crazy. :) Shoot the gun. See what it does. See what other shooters shooting other guns does. Let that drive your learning.

Good luck.

Richard
02-24-2018, 10:57 AM
That's good advice. RESULTS matter. See what it is that produces the groups you want by other shooters. Shooting is not a mathematical formula to be learned from a textbook, or on the internet. It happens by actual shooting.

Anticipating problems will drive ya crazy. :) Shoot the gun. See what it does. See what other shooters shooting other guns does. Let that drive your learning.

Good luck.

Anticipating problems puts you on the top page at a match. It's just unbelievable what little problems can do to an agg.

Richard

sgt_jamez
02-24-2018, 03:58 PM
Ok so maybe I should be asking a different question.

Something I’ve noticed is that sometimes when I get a flier and return the rifle to battery, the crosshairs are then aimed at the flier hole rather than the bull. So is that an indication that the bags are compressing or sliding or what? My front rest has an Edgewood bag and as posted, my rear bag is a DR (not flat top with 1/2” ear spacing). The wide bottom of the stock rides high, maybe a 1/2” or more above the stitching. Both bags and ears are filled with play sand.

If my rifle is returning to battery aimed at a flier, what is it telling me and what do I do about it?

mks
02-24-2018, 04:04 PM
Another thing that affects tracking is the alignment of barrel and receiver in the stock. This is something that can be fixed in the bedding, rather than modifying the outside of the stock. It will not compensate for a crooked stock, though.

jim1K
02-24-2018, 06:15 PM
I see some good answers to the question. My take is working with a savage you are some what limited, trigger pops up first.Jewel tried to make one and the action is too sloppy to get them to work. Draft in both the forearm and the butt make it go up and down, plus the crooked bedding doesn't help.
Now yes you can make one ride the bags and return the box at 1000 yds 90% of the time by bedding straight both horizontal and vertical. Milling any draft out of both ends for the vertical and by adding a plate to bottom of the butt that is adjustable. I can pull it to the rear at 100 and it will stay in 1/4" dot for a 1.5"This lets you see the hit on a clay bird at 600 and 1000 yds with free recoil. This will return to battery 90% 0f the time in the box at 1000 and only very small amounts of adjustment are need then. I have used some different methods of lining the rest and rear bag up and a removable jig was the best.
The accuracy level needed for long range is I would guess a .1 with es. in single digits will be a good place to start, .3 to .4 will get one name above the match director. You had better learn to read the wind when you get one to shoot. Most come in have no clue what it takes to shoot 2 to 3" groups at 1000 yds. you had better have all your ducks in a row........ Jim

jim1K
02-25-2018, 10:11 AM
Other than getting back on target for the next shot, is it that important? The shot is out of the barrel in milli-seconds or micro-seconds. In that time the rifle's travel is negligible. You haven't mentioned if you are shooting free recoil or if you have a firm grip at the time of firing.

At long range ?? yes, it is you can't see bullet holes. You have to rely on the same conditions to get small groups. What you know about short range does NOT apply to long range with the exception of bench manners. You have to see hits on clay birds or around them. so seeing hits matters and any draft in the stock takes that away unless you hold it then it shoots some where else...... Remember things like a critical eye box on a scope can kill you, more recoil than short range and getting it back on the bird to see the hit is critical and if the ground is wet and id doesn't make much of a splash. Different game ....... it had better track and return to battery like a rail gun..... Jim

mks
02-26-2018, 01:14 PM
Just ballpark, a BR rifle has moved backward about 1/8" before the bullet exits. Maybe not negligible if tracking isn't repeatable.

Boyd Allen
02-26-2018, 02:21 PM
I do not see any indication of how you are handling the rifle as you shoot it in your posts. If you are trying to shoot free recoil with that rifle you will continue to have problems because the trigger is not light enough and there is a LOT of barrel in front of your front sand bag. So, how are you handling (or not) the rifle as you shoot it. If you have it in contact with your shoulder to one degree or another and have your trigger hand on the stock, all of this tracking stuff becomes much less of an issue, and excellent groups can be shot that way. For example: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek044.html Many people have the mistaken impression that benchrest is only shot free recoil. That is not the case.

jim1K
02-26-2018, 04:06 PM
Just ballpark, a BR rifle has moved backward about 1/8" before the bullet exits. Maybe not negligible if tracking isn't repeatable.


That is true, but you miss the point.... It continues back on fire recoil now you have to push it back up in time to see the hit. You can not see holes at long range, no going back to the sighter after your sight in period. Doing the record string is all about tracking, return to battery, not having to adjust the aiming point very little if at all....... jim

jim1K
02-26-2018, 04:17 PM
I do not see any indication of how you are handling the rifle as you shoot it in your posts. If you are trying to shoot free recoil with that rifle you will continue to have problems because the trigger is not light enough and there is a LOT of barrel in front of your front sand bag. So, how are you handling (or not) the rifle as you shoot it. If you have it in contact with your shoulder to one degree or another and have your trigger hand on the stock, all of this tracking stuff becomes much less of an issue, and excellent groups can be shot that way. For example: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek044.html Many people have the mistaken impression that benchrest is only shot free recoil. That is not the case.

Boyd, It is a other story if you are shooting on pulled targets in stead of clay birds on a bank. yes it works to hold it but it is just an other variable. ...... but it still has to track...... for 10 shots, around here a condition does last that long and you need all the help you can get........ jim

Boyd Allen
02-26-2018, 04:32 PM
Jim, Did he say what kind of shooting he was doing? If he did, I overlooked that detail. In the short range game, Ocock shot himself into the hall of fame with a very soft rear bag, squeezing and holding the rifle. I agree short and long range are very different. Do you shoulder your rifle when competing at long range, or shoot free?

jim1K
02-26-2018, 07:14 PM
Jim, Did he say what kind of shooting he was doing? If he did, I overlooked that detail. In the short range game, Ocock shot himself into the hall of fame with a very soft rear bag, squeezing and holding the rifle. I agree short and long range are very different. Do you shoulder your rifle when competing at long range, or shoot free?



Boyd, I would guess middle ranges and with a Savage F class stock they don't fit any bag due to the large taper.
Long range you ride the stitches, you still balance the rifle. The for end stop is the final tune on how it rides the bags. I shoot free recoil, The Hoovers kind of hold the gun. but you need a good trigger and the Savage doesn't have that.
Bag squeezing at long range is doesn't cut it , pretty hard to run them fooling around with that. You want it to come into the box every shot while the condition holds and not to get caught in a condition change. No bullet holes to look at, no going back to the sighter, hope you pick a repeatable condition to shoot in...... you have 10 minutes for 10 shots and no field daisy wheels......... jim

Boyd Allen
02-26-2018, 08:15 PM
Thanks. Hopefully your rundown and mention of the trigger issue reinforces my earlier post. People often try to employ techniques that their equipment is not suitable for, not the regular competitors, but those who are working up to it. The Savages can do a good job on something like F Class where running is not possible, but for long range benchrest their trigger situation is a definite issue.

jim1K
02-27-2018, 09:54 AM
Thanks. Hopefully your rundown and mention of the trigger issue reinforces my earlier post. People often try to employ techniques that their equipment is not suitable for, not the regular competitors, but those who are working up to it. The Savages can do a good job on something like F Class where running is not possible, but for long range benchrest their trigger situation is a definite issue.

Boyd, just for your info. Jewel did try to make a trigger for a Savage but the tolerances were too generous, but I do know where there is one .....LOL....... jim

MislMan
02-27-2018, 11:32 AM
I am a novice benchrest shooter as well just using what I have for now (Ruger Precision Rifle). This rifle has its own struggles for bench shooting but I’m learning the ropes before jumping ahead for equipment and competition (funding limits). Anyway, the thing I found critical for rifle alignment was to have very free sliding bags/rifle. I finally upgraded both front and rear bags to units with super-slick material on the mating areas. This made a very big difference in my rifle alignment during return to “battery”. I’m still working on my un handling skills and repeatability of those. Also need to make sure you have “bedded” in your stock (lift rear stock and pound stock down into rear bag to set a ‘slot’ into the bag and settle the sand) to help with tracking.
I use the Caldwell Fire Control coaxial front rest with Bald Eagle 3”front bag and a Protektor 4” tall rear bag with supper slick material top. The coaxial front rest is working wonderfully at this point in time.

jim1K
02-27-2018, 12:06 PM
Too free isn't good, tighten the ears to get some drag, the rear to shoot long you need the butt on the bottom. If you move it back and forth a couple of times and your dot or cross hair goes down you need to take a little sand out of the ear or add sand to the main bag, it will spread them apart. It takes awhile to get them right....... jim

jackie schmidt
02-27-2018, 02:23 PM
Just for the OP's info, when using any stock that is legal for NBRSA LV and HV in Registered Competition, it is impossible to move the Rifle back in the bags without having the crosshairs or dot rise on the target.

This does not apply to NBRSA Sporter and Unlimited which have no restrictions on the shape of the stock.

jim1K
02-27-2018, 03:54 PM
Just for the OP's info, when using any stock that is legal for NBRSA LV and HV in Registered Competition, it is impossible to move the Rifle back in the bags without having the crosshairs or dot rise on the target.

This does not apply to NBRSA Sporter and Unlimited which have no restrictions on the shape of the stock.

Jackie, it is a long range gun a F class stock with the bottom of the fore end and butt are parallel. ......... BTW you can make a light gun stay on target and stay in the X ring for ten shots ......... jim

jackie schmidt
02-28-2018, 02:23 PM
Jackie, it is a long range gun a F class stock with the bottom of the fore end and butt are parallel. ......... BTW you can make a light gun stay on target and stay in the X ring for ten shots ......... jim

Yes. My 284 Light Gun is built on a Shehane Tracker and it stays reasonably close to POA when I move it back.

The problem is the considerable recoil.

jim1K
03-01-2018, 09:05 AM
Yes. My 284 Light Gun is built on a Shehane Tracker and it stays reasonably close to POA when I move it back.

The problem is the considerable recoil.


Jackie, you are right about the recoil of the 284, that is why you don't see the in a light gun. The ST 1000 will not do it the way it is made. It has draft on on both ends, but if it is wood you can mill it out and make it work. If it were me I would have used Alex Wheelers new stock with a 284, it would have handled the recoil and torque better......... jim

Tim Oltersdorf
03-02-2018, 03:30 PM
Dear Sgt., The groups you are getting with your rifle are certainly respectable for your rig. There is a lot of information on bag and rest set up in two books I recommend you consider purchasing. They are Extreme Rifle Accuracy by Mike Ratigan and The Book Of Rifle Accuracy by Tony Boyer. Both are indispensable to someone new to benchrest type shooting. I am pretty sure you can purchase them on the internet. There is a third book The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy by Glen Newick that is older (1989) then the others (2007 and 2010). From your post it is obvious you are observant and analytical in your thought process. These two books will give you the knowledge to apply those gifts. Tim

Wilbur
03-02-2018, 04:48 PM
There's no correlation involved as to where the rifle returns and the bullet hole just fired.....generally speaking. If you aimed at the same place every shot and all the bullet holes ain't real close there's something haywire. Doesn't matter so much what you do as long as you do it long enough for the bullet to leave the barrel. There are more rifles that shoot fliers than those that don't.

Wayne Campbell screwed off a barrel and drove it in the ground because it shot a flyer about every target. I pulled it out and cleaned it up because I thought Wayne had made a mistake. Turns out, the barrel simply wouldn't shoot well. The reason I gave it a try was that without the flyer it was an exceptional barrel...one hole with a shot out half an inch. The only good groups it shot was when the flyer occurred on the first shot and held off for the other four.

jim1K
03-02-2018, 06:27 PM
Dear Sgt., The groups you are getting with your rifle are certainly respectable for your rig. There is a lot of information on bag and rest set up in two books I recommend you consider purchasing. They are Extreme Rifle Accuracy by Mike Ratigan and The Book Of Rifle Accuracy by Tony Boyer. Both are indispensable to someone new to benchrest type shooting. I am pretty sure you can purchase them on the internet. There is a third book The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy by Glen Newick that is older (1989) then the others (2007 and 2010). From your post it is obvious you are observant and analytical in your thought process. These two books will give you the knowledge to apply those gifts. Tim


Mike and Tony know about zero in shooting long range, I think this is about med and long range not about short range.There is nothing in common about the two except bench manners...... jim

Tim Oltersdorf
03-02-2018, 07:09 PM
Mike and Tony know about zero in shooting long range, I think this is about med and long range not about short range.There is nothing in common about the two except bench manners...... jim

Jim, You are correct that Tony and Mike are short range BR shooters. I assumed the thread was about short range BR due to the group sizes mentioned. I believe you introduced the concept of long range to this thread. I feel there is something that short range BR can contribute to long range mainly in bench manners as you correctly stated but also in die set up reloading precision etc. I still feel that the books I mentioned are important. Is there a publication that deals with long range BR that you can recommend? Tim

jackie schmidt
03-02-2018, 11:12 PM
I reread this thread, and no where does the OP say anything about shooting long range.

True, his Rifle has a stock deigned for long range, but it appears he is shooting 100 yards.

jim1K
03-03-2018, 09:33 AM
I tune at 100 for 1000, where I can control the conditions I shoot under. when stated what he was using, it was not a short range gun. if you see .1 or less groups at 100 you I guess you assume it is a short range gun? I remember awhile back I shot 5 groups at 100 yds. with Barts 105 and it agged under a .1 and you guy called me a liar. I sure don't need a big gun to shoot small at 1000 to try to beat the wind.
I won't bother all you experts anymore........... jim

classcat
03-03-2018, 10:38 AM
I tune at 100 for 1000, where I can control the conditions I shoot under. when stated what he was using, it was not a short range gun. if you see .1 or less groups at 100 you I guess you assume it is a short range gun? I remember awhile back I shot 5 groups at 100 yds. with Barts 105 and it agged under a .1 and you guy called me a liar. I sure don't need a big gun to shoot small at 1000 to try to beat the wind.
I won't bother all you experts anymore........... jim
Good Morning Jim
This is an F Y I ,,, If you have a gun that AGGS under a .100 @100 that is WORLD RECORD TERRITORY for any weight category in our discipline. The 5 shot unlimited was recently broken but could not be recognized because the match was not registered and the stationary backer was not in place. .0810 AGG

retired
03-03-2018, 11:07 AM
lets see, you jump in and try telling a record holder at 1000 yards how things are.
again you have gone where you should not.
jim it is best to ignore him. go look at his behavior on accurate shooter.


Good Morning Jim
This is an F Y I ,,, If you have a gun that AGGS under a .100 @100 that is WORLD RECORD TERRITORY for any weight category in our discipline. The 5 shot unlimited was recently broken but could not be recognized because the match was not registered and the stationary backer was not in place. .0810 AGG

classcat
03-03-2018, 11:18 AM
lets see, you jump in and try telling a record holder at 1000 yards how things are.
again you have gone where you should not.
jim it is best to ignore him. go look at his behavior on accurate shooter.

Just STATING Facts

alinwa
03-03-2018, 01:16 PM
Just STATING Facts

"Just STATING Facts" ???

more like

"stating the obvious"

also known as,

"bloviation"

classcat
03-03-2018, 01:36 PM
"Just STATING Facts" ???

more like

"stating the obvious"

also known as,

"bloviation"

If it is not obvious is it still considered bloviation or garrulous ?

alinwa
03-03-2018, 02:29 PM
If it is not obvious is it still considered bloviation or garrulous ?

NOT obvious would be for me to learn that you and Jim often compete together, shooting side-by-each in a spirit of friendly comaraderie....... that in this spirited competitive spirit you often 'dig' at each other in a neato fashion and that this reminder that Jim is shooting very well is a side-handed compliment to Jim's dedication and skill.

classcat
03-03-2018, 04:48 PM
Who is being Garrulous and liking to Bloviate ? The post about your wife is proof in point

IhuntIL
03-03-2018, 05:11 PM
I am a newbie to benchrest type shooting. I'm using a Sinclair Competition rest, a Protektor DR rear bag with 1/2" spacing, and a Savage BR stock (bottom of butt is flat and basically parallel to the forearm). Looking through the scope and running the rifle back and forth, the crosshairs always track down and right. The vertical I get... its a function of the stock being thicker as it nears the palm swell and that causes the the rifle to raise in the rear bag during recoil. I would imagine the yaw is bag alignment, but is that alignment of the rear bag to the front rest? The front bag doesn't sit straight? Rear bag not straight? I haven't yet found information that clearly defines the accepted methods for aligning the bags and troubleshooting tracking issues. Not being able to solve this on my own is making me feel rather dumb and I've considered my rifle might make a better lamp stand than what I am doing with it! Grrrr... And tips, pointers, methodologies etc would save my rifle from wearing a lampshade. Thanks all!
I believe you have the same stock as I do. I milled mine so the taper is even from front to back. I also milled it parallel to the forearm. I made the angle ~22 deg and 5/8 wide. It definitely tracks much better than the original configuration. With the original configuration I found it difficult to keep properly seated in the rear bag. How important is it I cant say but I can say I shot my first clean relay (600 yd F class) after I mode this modification. I think this modification alone improved my scores 3 points per relay. I did this after seeing another shooters post on Accurate shooter.

alinwa
03-04-2018, 12:06 AM
Who is being Garrulous and liking to Bloviate ? The post about your wife is proof in point

Thank you :)

She IS lovely....

garandman
03-04-2018, 05:38 PM
Aaaaaannnndd another soap opera episode of "As the Wind Flag Turns" .... tho extra vocabulary points for correct contextual usage of both "garrulous" and "bloviate" ...