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View Full Version : What's the best groups I can reasonably expect ....



garandman
02-10-2018, 08:08 PM
... from match grade 22 rf ammo at 50 yards?

SHould I expect occasional "fliers?"

Right now I can get a pretty consistent 0.20 - 0.285" C-T-C groups at 50 y with y the occasional flier. Lapua Midas + Is that gonna be competetive anywhere?

Your data, experiences and pics welcome. :)

Wilbur
02-10-2018, 11:07 PM
There used to be a few lots of ammo that didn't have any flyers. That said a .200 group can produce a few wins now and then. I reckon what I'm sayin' here is keep on keeping on and maybe some day you'll find some ammo that doesn't have flyers. Another thought is that it's not the ammo that's flying but perhaps the rifle is responsible. Even further, and I resist even mentioning...it could be the shooter....but we'll leave that out for now.

Kiwi Greg
02-11-2018, 12:46 AM
Looking forward to responses as well.

Hard to know where you need to be & yes fliers are very frustrating.....

FWIW my Rifle shoots SK Match as good or better than Midas +

Wilbur
02-12-2018, 01:48 AM
It might be important to know how far the flier is flying. When you get a flier, what does the group measure?

garandman
02-12-2018, 07:54 PM
It might be important to know how far the flier is flying. When you get a flier, what does the group measure?

The worst was an inch out. . More typically, the "flier" opens the group to 0.75" at 50 y. (that otherwide would be 0.33" - 0.40")


BTW.... I'll take no offense at learning its shooter error. That's the cheapest easiest fix of all. :)

MaxxPower
02-14-2018, 08:00 AM
I'll jump in here as to there haven't been many responses to your question about group sizes.

Most serious RFBR shooters don't measure group sizes. When we're testing ammo we can tell if ammo is grouping the way we want it or not. There are just too many vagaries with this sport to concern yourself with the tiniest of movements within a group (wind, mirage, trigger control, someone opened the door at the range, the list goes on and on.)

We also don't measure groups because it has nothing to do with how we compete. We shoot targets with 25 bulls for score and how the ammo behaves across and up and down that target is, in the end, all that we care about. Are we hitting X's or not?

So, we shoot groups and targets to test ammo but after a certain point a tiny group is a tiny group. I've never measured one against another.

jim1K
02-14-2018, 09:06 AM
I would guess the wind will affect you more than anything, Your fliers are more than likely getting caught in a condition change. I shoot groups to to see consistency in the ammo. It maybe wrong or it maybe right it is your call, but learn to shoot off the flags and your groups will shrink and your scores will go up...... Jim

todde
02-14-2018, 11:42 AM
Mr. Hornstein is right. Group size really has no usefulness. I get way more information from a target shot for score than a bunch of groups. Todd

jim1K
02-14-2018, 01:37 PM
Mr. Hornstein is right. Group size really has no usefulness. I get way more information from a target shot for score than a bunch of groups. Todd

That is one way but to put numbers on it you can shoot groups. Rimfire is only one discipline, even center fire score uses groups to get loads and adjust tuners....... I think you need more than one shot per bull to adjust a tuner...... Jim

vicfox
02-17-2018, 12:33 AM
Testing for tuner settings is done by a couple of methods and group size is the measure, so shooting groups is a benefit to measure performance. I shoot for score but group size gives me good feed back AS WELL AS SCORE on a variety of setting, techniques and ammunition.

todde
02-17-2018, 07:27 AM
We have the means to accurately measure the distance from a single shot to center for a single shot. A comparing of all shots/some shots or overlay is possible if wanted. There is so much more going on in running a good target for score than tune it seems like a waste of good ammo shooting a bunch of groups. Just my opinion. Todd

garandman
02-17-2018, 05:47 PM
I get the 22rf scoring system, so I know what you are saying there. 1 shot per bull.

the only reason I mention groups is CONSISTENCY ...which would be significant in hitting the center of each separate bull on each shot.

"Groups" are just multiple shots on a single bull. Large groups would mean I'm not gonna hit each individual bull consistently

Looking at my first match next Saturday, so I'll have pics of targets to post then.

garandman
02-17-2018, 05:53 PM
OK....I'll ask the same questions a different way.....

How far from the center of each bull does your rifle shoot consistently?


http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/joefr2500x350.jpg

todde
02-17-2018, 06:34 PM
Haha. No reason for measurement on target like that. Beautiful card. Todd

Slick Willy
02-17-2018, 06:45 PM
That 2500 target you posted could /should have been scanned by scorer at many venues ! This will give you each bull shot distribution as a group / as a row and for 25 shots as a group from center ! Most ARA /PSL shooters don`t care about that cause it means nothing to your placement in a match ! It is available and I use it when testing new ammo for selecting ! Landy Landercasper (Husker P7M8 on Rimfire Accuracy)has posted many of these Target /25 shot overlays showing this many many Times on Rimfire Accuracy and probably over here also ! Inside shooting and Outdoors in conditions are two different dogs but it is beneficial selecting new ammo ! 2500 Targets have many different pictures of how they are achieved ,some kinda ugly and some pretty ! Still 2500`s ! Many folks shoot a lifetime and will nerver shoot a 2500 outdoors. Look up some of Landy`s post and that will give you the data you wanting someone to spit out ! This program will tell what it would have scored on Worst edge ARA, Best Edge IR50 and Best edge PSL which all three are different !

Groups vs Single Bulls for score you will discover incorporate the shooter POA and ammo POI and 22RF waxed lead projectiles are far less forgiving than CF groups that you load yourself with steel jackets around them. Not much comparison to CF vs RF in ammo distribution cause ELEY /Lapua can`t tell you anything other than speed & Lot # and that means mostly Na Na ! JMHO

todde
02-17-2018, 07:58 PM
slick is correct. Landy Landercasper has a killer program. Slick has shot 2500s in and outdoor. Hes been at this a while and any advice he gives should be followed. Todd

garandman
02-17-2018, 10:35 PM
That's not actually MY card....just used for illustration purposes. :) When I posted it it didn't occur to me it mught appear like its mine..... I wish. :)

The Jet
02-22-2018, 04:12 PM
I don't think I have ever seen a prettier card
Wish I could find some ammo that would shoot that flat
If that card was a twenty five shot group it would still be pretty tiny
But that card is a long way from usual
If you could shoot in conditions in the 0.2 group size you would win a lot of matches
Slick told me that a 2250 on a ARA card is par for the course so maybe thats what to aim to achieve
I know in bad conditions I was having trouble getting 2000
The boys the USA are the best in the business
What a card

garandman
02-23-2018, 10:14 AM
The Jet -

Thanx. That gives me something to "shoot for"

Basically, it seems I shouldn't expect the same accuracy / consistency / repeatability from rimfire as my centerfire guns. Still, I'm trying to know what I *** should *** expect, and this helps.