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garrettkq
01-17-2018, 05:40 PM
Who's holding it? Where's it going to be? When?

ModelA
01-19-2018, 06:03 AM
Who's holding it? Where's it going to be? When?

Garrett been asking the same questions for a while, the only answer I got from Steve who does the scores for the Scoreline. Nothing from the BOD.???
Steve said two clubs was willing to run the Nationals but he didn't say which clubs?
Would be nice to know so people can plan their travel.

Paul Bendix

garrettkq
01-20-2018, 12:13 PM
Paul,

We here in Phoenix have offered to to host the Nationals again. Our offer has been on the table, however the current board has not responded. We have expressed interest and the willingness to host. Well, here we are IN 2018 and still no word for the leadership of the sport. This makes me very uncomfortable to say this on a public forum, but this really questions the leadership of the USARB. Organizing a NATIONAL level championship event takes time, effort, funding, and sponsorship. Most importantly, time. Time for the competitors to plan, and time for the organizers to perform all the essential tasks to pull off a successful event. Any strong organization has this solidified well before a year out. Not a few months, and certainly not in haste.
To me, this indicates because we have not heard anything yet, I am afraid the fragmentation of leadership in airgun Benchrest here in the United States is becoming apparent and genuinely questions the future of our sport. It pains me to say this publicly. There ARE stewards of this sport that have worked very hard to see this thrive and continue. However, with the stagnation in leadership, those that are willing and interested to follow a sport, have no direction. Even worse, no designated place to gather, celebrate, and share their passion for sportsmanship on a yearly basis.
Paul, I don't want to see Airgun Benchrest fade away. And, I am certain, there are many out there that agree.

Garrett

Joe Friedrich
01-22-2018, 05:00 PM
Garrett, sorry you feel that way. You contacted me a month ago about hosting this years Nationals, and apologize for not getting back to you sooner but dealing with pneumonia for the last month you were not a priority my health was. You stated having the Nationals in October which is 9 months away and feel one still has enough time to plan it if there is a agreement with BOD. Either way it will be held.

The only drawback I see after speaking with you is the protest period, you still want to magnify the bull, see where the center is and if it needs to be moved. All the big matches that have taken place use a plug for protesting targets.If your crew doesn't understand how to use a plug I would be more than happy to help in this area using my gear. Give me a call when you have the time to discuss, now that I'm feeling much better.

Kind Regards,
Joe

Chas DiCapua
01-24-2018, 01:12 PM
Garrett, I hope the details can be worked out so that the nationals can be held at your club in Phoenix. I would look forward to coming out and shooting with you all.

Thanks in advance for all the work that goes into hosting such an event.

Chas

strever
01-25-2018, 01:17 PM
Garrett i agree with Chas, it would be kind of nice to have a nationals match in your back yard
now that Orion the company your group used for scoring in the past is no longer willing to work with airgun benchrest have you found a different solution ?

Dick

KimZ
01-25-2018, 05:39 PM
I heard there are issues reaching 25M bench to target at this range. Should be easy to fix, though one notes that Open Grove is all set at the regulation distance

garrettkq
01-31-2018, 09:21 PM
A few points:

Joe, the sport appreciates your hard work and effort over the years. You are one of the gentlemen and stewards of our sport. Your sincere efforts over the years to keep this together is felt nation-wide.
Thank you for your offer on how to use a plug. We are well versed and highly skilled in this archaic ability. However, with advances in technology over the years, we have moved well beyond the limitations of this system. Computer and scanning technology has replaced the metal vs hanging chad method. Now, I understand that this is a paradigm shift for many that are set in their ways. But, we are FULLY confident in the system we are using to score and provide world-class results. Keep in mind, no system is perfect, but the key is to identify it's faults and address them head-on, and not hide behind outdated methodology. I will be more than happy to reciprocate, and show you how to use this scoring system. That includes blowing up the pellet hole to about a foot wide on the TV monitor and counting the lead-stained fibers. We chatted about what the World rules require: ...that the protest must be re-scored manually. That is exactly what the program allows, and what we'll do, but with superb ability.

Dick,
Thank you for your kind words.
Orion has unfortunately stopped allocating resources to airgun benchrest for one simple reason. The clubs and individual shooters in this sport did not invest in the system. Frankly, most benchrest clubs are only a handful of shooters in size and don't need to invest in a scoring system of this caliber. It takes a tremendous amount of resources, time, and money to create AND maintain updates. Considering that we host events on a monthly basis that rival even regionals or nationals in size- combined, we need a system that can meet these demands. The system works great, the problem was keeping it updated with new operating systems. There is still no benchrest scoring system that exceeds the capabilities of this program. We will continue to use it. We are looking for other systems that can meet or surpass this devices' capability. We are already exploring the next generation... paperless systems. (boy now that will rock some of the pluggers' world, lol. Yes, did you feel the earth stand still for a moment?)

Kim,
You are more than welcome to come on out and check out our range. There are no issues "reaching" 25 Meters. The only issue is one's ability to manage the wind that pushes your pellet out that far! Open Grove is a great range, the hosts have their hearts in the right places. It is however limited on benches, and other minor issues and consistencies.



We are ready, willing, and able to host the next championship. Waiting too long, at this busy, popular range, we will loose that window for reserving the real estate. It is now almost February, and still no answer. WE don't want to see benchrest fade away. Again, I am certain that there folks out there that agree, as your many private emails of support attest. The luxury of procrastination does not exist if you want to put on a grand event.

It. Is. Time. We are prepared and will be moving forward to make this happen.

We will host The 2018 National Championship in October.



Garrett

Salticon
02-03-2018, 05:54 PM
Personally i would love to see Nats in Phoenix, Garrett runs a top notch range and his events run smoothly. I have all the trust in the world in his scoring system, i double checked my EBR cards when i got back home, and they where on the money 100%. I only ask that the benches be lottery drawn in front of the shooter, and bench rotation after every card shot. Thats the proper way by World rules. We definitely need a time frame for Nats last month already. KimZ im not sure what you are referring to, but the Phoenix range supported i believe was 40+ benches from 25m-100 yards. Todd Banks held 2017 Nationals and did a outstanding job, he ran NATs and NERegionals like it was a world class event. Their was a few whining prima donnas and complainers in the crowd, but they shutup and shot their targets. Theres always a few in the crowd that think the sea should part as they are approaching the bench..

My Vote is for Phoenix, oh thats right.. doesnt matter what the shooters want.... thats what it seems like.... seems like the sport has a noose on it from high up, Lets get it together make some dates! Let do something other than make/sell targets and maintain a numbers website. We have shooter willing to travel around the world to represent the US with not help or support from our governing body. If it seens rude and hurts feelings im sorry, if im mis informed, learn me..

Ken Hicks
Southeast Sharpshooters

ModelA
02-06-2018, 07:47 PM
Kim I have been to the first National's that Garrett and crew ran and your right the targets were only 25 yards. They were going to move the benches back 8 plus feet to make it 25 meters. If I remember correctly the Club would not allow it for safety reasons.
Also the only way you could work on your gun as if to change barrels you had to walk to a practice range and wait for an open bench. You couldn't work on it in your car. Once you had the changes done there was nobody to check your gun for that class.
You were to pick up your targets at the banquet. My package only had three of my LV targets in it. Three other people had the rest of my targets. And the protest was long over before I got my targets. The original scoring system Sucked!
Overall I had a great time but don't think I will ever shoot in AZ again.

I think we are missing something. Every country holds qualify matches to enable you to go represent their country at the Worlds or World Cup. The USA is who ever wants to go and has the money. At the Worlds in
2011 in SC. You had to qualify, we on the east coast had to shoot in snow storms and -30 degrees weather
And still kicked butt.

Paul Bendix

Joe Friedrich
02-08-2018, 02:44 PM
Phoenix will be hosting this years USARB Nationals.



Joe Friedrich
acting for USARB Board of Directors

garrettkq
02-08-2018, 07:47 PM
Paul Bendix

Paul,

One of the important things to remember at a active range is that safety is a primary concern. When people are tinkering with their guns in all different places, there is no control for safety. This range strictly prohibits playing with guns in your car. Sorry, but we all know that bad things happen. If you needed to work on your rifle, you needed to do in in a safe way with the barrel pointed in a safe direction, and that's downrange. Unfortunately, this couldn't be done on a range where people were down rage during a cold line, or during a match. So we provided an entirely separate area to tinker. Folks have a tendency to come from ranges with all different safety standards. We adhere to the highest levels possible, so we understand this may be challenging for some. When holding matches with 100+ folks running around, you have to be strict, but yet kind. You wouldn't believe how many times you see people at different ranges tinkering with their guns and firing them in the direction of other shooters!
The scoring system was in it's infancy when you first experienced it. Looking back, I laugh now, after hearing the crew you went home with in your car was reading the wrong column of the printed reports and thought the numbers were completely off by several digits. Hahaha, it's ok i wouldn't admit to that either, lol. I do believe you still did go home with "just a few" well deserved gold medals that trip.

garrettkq
02-08-2018, 07:49 PM
Phoenix will be hosting this years USARB Nationals.


Joe Friedrich
acting for USARB Board of Directors

Joe,

We are glad to have your support. We look forward to a great event. Thank you for all your efforts.

Garrett

Pete Roberson
02-11-2018, 02:31 PM
Phoenix will be hosting this years USARB Nationals.



Joe Friedrich
acting for USARB Board of Directors

Joe,
It was my understanding that St. Louis offered long before Phoenix, is there a reason why they
weren't considered??
Seems as though it would have been much better to consider a club that didn't have so many excuses
for why they couldn't fix what was wrong the last time??

Joe Friedrich
02-11-2018, 07:54 PM
Pete,

One club was interested but never got back to us. I do not believe it was St. Louis. Out of the last 4 years only 3 clubs came forward to host the Nationals, 2 of them were here. All that needs to be done is for a sanctioned club to contact the Board so we can discuss the venue. If St. Louis is serious they need to contact us for next year.

Kind Regards,
Joe

Pete Roberson
02-11-2018, 11:03 PM
Joe,
Thank You for the clarification !!
Pete

KimZ
02-12-2018, 11:46 AM
Garrett if you please, some clarifications may help shooters thinking of attending:

1. Dates of the event, which classes / which days, how long each day?. Practice days?

2. Will shooters be obligated to compete in all classes or certain classes?

3. Benches to be shared with other shooters? Bench rotation between cards? If so, how will benches be assigned and how much time to set up at your new bench?

4. How will cards be scored? What will the protest timing / procedure be and how will protested cards be re-scored?

5. Distance from front of bench to targets?

Maybe others will have additional questions.

Thank you

Kim

dmw6455
02-12-2018, 12:52 PM
I hope it is not scheduled between Oct. 6-20th. Will be out of the country. Already going to miss FT Nationals. Don't want to also miss BR Nationals.

Dana W

Capt. Picard
02-14-2018, 01:25 PM
Seems a lot of you are ill informed. Phoenix has a 25 METER range. No if, and's, or but's. There are no safety issues because everybody follows the rules. If you do not follow the rules and you have been previously warned you will be asked to leave. I value my safety and all of you should as well. As for scoring!!!!! I have used both, plugging and electronic. Plugging is ok but it has it's own pitfalls. Electronic, though not perfect has proven time after time more accurate and consistent than plugging. I feel fortunate that we have an environment which allows us to use electronic scoring. I will agree that for smaller clubs it may not be a feasable option so by all means continue plugging. But don't you DARE criticize electronic scoring unless you have EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE about this system. So stop the bull and get with the program. We are here to have fun, at least I am. Instead of picking things apart and being part of the problem, as many of you seem inclined to be, I'd rather be part of the solution and be shooting. I don't care what scoring system you use!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will say this "once you go electronic you won't go back".....

Andrew C Picard

KimZ
02-14-2018, 02:06 PM
Logically the correct way to decide this is with science, not bellicosity! I have not seen proof nor evidence that electronic scoring is more, less, or the same accuracy as manual plugging.

It would not be difficult to test this: Take a number of cards (50+) scored electronically*, and number each card. Phoenix keeps a list of the electronic scores, with each card number corresponding to a score. The cards should not have electronic scores on them as it could create bias. Send the cards to us at Open Grove (because we have Open Minds ), and we will score them manually/conventionally. After the cards have been scored both ways, the score sets can be compared (possibly statistically) for differences.

Maybe then we will live long and prosper!

*More is better, maybe 100 shot in actual conditions. It would be important not to "cherry pick" cards to avoid those that had to be re-scored, protested, etc.



Seems a lot of you are ill informed. Phoenix has a 25 METER range. No if, and's, or but's. There are no safety issues because everybody follows the rules. If you do not follow the rules and you have been previously warned you will be asked to leave. I value my safety and all of you should as well. As for scoring!!!!! I have used both, plugging and electronic. Plugging is ok but it has it's own pitfalls. Electronic, though not perfect has proven time after time more accurate and consistent than plugging. I feel fortunate that we have an environment which allows us to use electronic scoring. I will agree that for smaller clubs it may not be a feasable option so by all means continue plugging. But don't you DARE criticize electronic scoring unless you have EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE about this system. So stop the bull and get with the program. We are here to have fun, at least I am. Instead of picking things apart and being part of the problem, as many of you seem inclined to be, I'd rather be part of the solution and be shooting. I don't care what scoring system you use!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will say this "once you go electronic you won't go back".....

Andrew C Picard

Chas DiCapua
02-14-2018, 03:00 PM
I just realized that these dates overlap with the dates for the Field Target National match in NC. I know I shoot both, not sure how many others do. Just checking to see if you were aware of that.

Chas

Capt. Picard
02-18-2018, 10:31 AM
The Phoenix Airgun Club has been using electronic scoring for 4 plus years. We have well over 50 members who participate in our bi-monthly 25 meter matches. Yes that's right, we have two 25 meter matches a month. At any one of these matches we have anywhere from 12 to 30 shooters on the line. Most are extremely experienced with plugging and are convinced that electronic scoring is the way to go. If they are convinced, that's good enough for me. I challenge...............no better yet. I welcome you or anyone else to participate in any one of our matches and experience our scoring process firsthand and bring your plugs, do your own comparison. Again let me express the fact that I don't care what scoring system YOU use just so long as you are shooting and having FUN.

Wish I could beam you over to our club. Make it so number one.


Seems a lot of you are ill informed. Phoenix has a 25 METER range. No if, and's, or but's. There are no safety issues because everybody follows the rules. If you do not follow the rules and you have been previously warned you will be asked to leave. I value my safety and all of you should as well. As for scoring!!!!! I have used both, plugging and electronic. Plugging is ok but it has it's own pitfalls. Electronic, though not perfect has proven time after time more accurate and consistent than plugging. I feel fortunate that we have an environment which allows us to use electronic scoring. I will agree that for smaller clubs it may not be a feasable option so by all means continue plugging. But don't you DARE criticize electronic scoring unless you have EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE about this system. So stop the bull and get with the program. We are here to have fun, at least I am. Instead of picking things apart and being part of the problem, as many of you seem inclined to be, I'd rather be part of the solution and be shooting. I don't care what scoring system you use!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will say this "once you go electronic you won't go back".....

Andrew C Picard

Wilbur
02-18-2018, 08:26 PM
Never mind about the amount of effort...which method is the most accurate? If one way is more accurate than the other...how many points per match is involved?

garrettkq
02-19-2018, 11:06 PM
Yes the match starts the day after the FT nats. I personally plan on attending the FT nats as well. There are flights from NC to PHX on Sunday evening. Hope to see you on that flight! It will only limit your ability to sight in, test, and practice. Well hey, maybe we'll make arrangements to keep the range open extra long on Sunday night for those that arrive later. We'll see. There still will be a very brief (10 min) sight-in the day of the event.
These are the best days to host an event at our range. Reservations are made over a year out for prime time major events. In order to get it at this prime time, it needed to be tacked on to the EBR. So this becomes a win-win for those that are serious about benchrest. Two major events in one week. So, bottom line is this will be a perfect-storm super airgun event for anyone that wants to make the time for this. it will be a jam-packed solid week of competition. Back-to-back-to-back-beg-for-mercy-Benchrest.

For next year's event, the USARB board members need to get their decisions made by late summer this year for 2019 so appropriate planning can be made and things are not yet again done in haste, or afterthought.

Ok now to address Kim Z:
The inherent logic of comparative testing methods is flawed. It is assuming that plugging is the gold standard, and that any other scoring system needs to be compared to it (the plug). That is where the mind blowing paradigm shift needs to happen. One cannot "compare" one versus the other head to head. Plugging inserts a metal dowel into torn paper fibers, and proceeds to the path of least resistance that follows the greatest rip pattern in the paper fibers. Thus altering the hole in the paper. No matter what is said by the best of the pluggers, this is impossible not to do. Anytime a plug is inserted, the hole is altered. Period. Then factor in biased plugging techniques, and human error. Where scanning provides one key indisputable element: a virgin image of the unaltered hole. Then, magnified several hundred times. This is where you can see where the projectile made contact, and left it's debris - the lead deposits (and sometimes the lube), that made the hole, and actually see the remaining paper fibers. YES, there will ALWAYS be a difference between a plug and a scan. One cannot compare which one is better based on comparing the results of one to the other. What a computer will do is reduce the human factor: add better, remember the correct ring it's scoring, document the actual score it sees, not be biased on the shooter, not be biased on pressure, if you are a leftie or a righty, not be mad, tired, happy or sad, nearsighted or farsighted, parkinsonian, or early demented. It scans it, applies an algorithm, and baaam, your score. Now, it is not perfect. It can still make errors, however it is far more consistent, accurate, and faster than the dowel.
Wait until we start talking about lasers, radar, and other ways the world of scoring will go right around the corner.... that will be fun.

Please go to phoenixairgun.net for info regarding the match. Click the "USARB Nats" tab


1. Dates of the event, which classes / which days, how long each day?. Practice days? - see website
2. Will shooters be obligated to compete in all classes or certain classes? - You are never 'obligated' to participate. compete where you want.
3. Benches to be shared with other shooters? NO, but there will be relays if over 40 shooters.
Bench rotation between cards? Yes, all and every card.
If so, how will benches be assigned.- there are 40 benches. shooters will be chosen by random draw. then after ea card, moved 1/3 down range, for the next card. so fair movement every card to a different part of range, not just a bench or two down.
and how much time to set up at your new bench? there will be about 30 in-between ea card. exact schedule will be posted, and is subject to revision.
4. How will cards be scored? electronic scoring.
What will the protest timing - after each card
/ procedure be - exact details to follow, wailing wall, scoring shed is right next to range.
and how will protested cards be re-scored? Manually as world rules require. Image of hole enlarged 300x on Large screen TV, verified by visual overlay of where the computer placed scoring delineation, then validated, or corrected manually if needed.
5. Distance from front of bench to targets? umm... 25m? well that depends on behavior, if you are rude, we move your target our to 30 meters. if you are shooting well then 45m. But if you are in the top 3 we'll move out the targets to 50.


Kindest regards,

Garrett

KimZ
02-21-2018, 10:27 AM
Thanks Garrett

ahighe
02-21-2018, 12:27 PM
"...scanning provides one key indisputable element: a virgin image of the unaltered hole."

Not true, unless you scan targets while they are still on the stands. Pellets do not punch clean holes. As you point out, they tear the paper that pushes out the back, creating punctured dimples. Once you remove targets, stack them, put them on the scanner, etc, those dimples get compressed and distorted. I routinely scan and plug my targets and see both approaches make errors.

If you rely on a measurement system to make important decisions, it is prudent to know how capable it is. To what extent can it distinguish between values? To what degree of statistical confidence? Fortunately, determining the capability of your measurement system is straightforward. For example, if you want to have 95% confidence that target values are "correct" (or at least consistent), measure 30 targets and then re-measure them in random order. Send me the data and I'll tell you how much error you can expect. Or, I can explain the process to you.

You can never determine capability of any measurement system with 100% certainty. And you have to sample disproportionately larger numbers of targets to increase confidence.

The capability you measure is valid only if the handling and scanning process remains the same. Different people stacking different numbers of targets may alter how the dimples distort and compress.

At any match you have the ability to re-scan every target (important to re-scan in random order in order to capture unexpected sources of variation). At a large national match you have the opportunity to determine system capability with greater confidence. I think most people would be interested in seeing quantitative data that indicates the range of expected variation. Unsupported claims of accuracy provide little assurance.

Albert



Ok now to address Kim Z:
The inherent logic of comparative testing methods is flawed. It is assuming that plugging is the gold standard, and that any other scoring system needs to be compared to it (the plug). That is where the mind blowing paradigm shift needs to happen. One cannot "compare" one versus the other head to head. Plugging inserts a metal dowel into torn paper fibers, and proceeds to the path of least resistance that follows the greatest rip pattern in the paper fibers. Thus altering the hole in the paper. No matter what is said by the best of the pluggers, this is impossible not to do. Anytime a plug is inserted, the hole is altered. Period. Then factor in biased plugging techniques, and human error. Where scanning provides one key indisputable element: a virgin image of the unaltered hole. Then, magnified several hundred times. This is where you can see where the projectile made contact, and left it's debris - the lead deposits (and sometimes the lube), that made the hole, and actually see the remaining paper fibers. YES, there will ALWAYS be a difference between a plug and a scan. One cannot compare which one is better based on comparing the results of one to the other. What a computer will do is reduce the human factor: add better, remember the correct ring it's scoring, document the actual score it sees, not be biased on the shooter, not be biased on pressure, if you are a leftie or a righty, not be mad, tired, happy or sad, nearsighted or farsighted, parkinsonian, or early demented. It scans it, applies an algorithm, and baaam, your score. Now, it is not perfect. It can still make errors, however it is far more consistent, accurate, and faster than the dowel.

Garrett

KimZ
02-21-2018, 02:15 PM
"It is assuming that plugging is the gold standard, and that any other scoring system needs to be compared to it (the plug)."

This is a fair question. No one is claiming any scoring system is perfect (in defining a 0.224" circle around the centroid of POI?). However I proposed comparative testing because the WRABF rules indicate that plugging is the standard:

"8c Scoring Plugs. All shots which cannot be scored by visual scoring will be checked with a certified .22 plug for rimfire and air rifle - plug and marked on the target with a "P" to so indicate."

These rules further reference electronic scoring and appear to provide that shooters can protest and ask for manual re-scoring: "Where electronic scoring is utilised, the match director will ensure the rules above will be used where appropriate or necessary, notwithstanding any rights for protest , re-scoring manually, etc."

http://www.wrabf.com/rules/WRABF%20&%20ERABSF%20RULEBOOK%202013-%202021.pdf

Kim

garrettkq
02-21-2018, 06:56 PM
Albert,

"Not true, unless you scan targets while they are still on the stands. Pellets do not punch clean holes. As you point out, they tear the paper that pushes out the back, creating punctured dimples. Once you remove targets, stack them, put them on the scanner, etc, those dimples get compressed and distorted. I routinely scan and plug my targets and see both approaches make errors."
You are correct when referencing all the variables that can affect the hole. No hole is perfect. Nothing is perfect. it is amazing how imperfect even the pellet is prior to making the hole. how the backer effects the hole, how the angle of the pellet effects the hole... i can go on...

"You can never determine capability of any measurement system with 100% certainty." Nothing is perfect. its all all about reducing the variables. Kind of like benchrest shooting ;)

And you have to sample disproportionately larger numbers of targets to increase confidence."
Very true. Large sample sizes and your 'N' number are key in statistical analysis.

"The capability you measure is valid only if the handling and scanning process remains the same. Different people stacking different numbers of targets may alter how the dimples distort and compress. "
Yes! Human intervention on any level will distort, compress, add, view, review, perceive, tear, alter, etc a hole to a degree. This is where a scan provides the least amount of human hole innervation and intervention. One amazing feature of hole enlargement, is the ability to even see the lead deposits on the paper fibers. Where the pellet actually made contact vs where the absence-of-paper is, vs where a dowel migrates to when pushed through the remaining fibers. imagine how much a steel rod can effect minute fibers...and how it can be further influenced by the imprecise nature of the human hand. yes, stunning!

"Unsupported claims of accuracy provide little assurance." True! Exactly, I wonder how can the plug can be so revered with so much unsupported claims of accuracy! Human error is so consistently inconsistent it is amazing. We have been scanning targets for the last four years. We have learned, experienced, analyzed, reviewed, assessed, corrected, been corrected, corrected others. We have plugged. We have compared. We have discovered something amazing... it is not perfect! Nothing is perfect. But more perfect-er that the plug.


Kim,

We are interpreting Subsection 8c (from WRABF Section 8 Target MARKING Procedures) as the use of a scoring plug IF "the score cannot be scored by visual scoring". We feel the intent here is the use of a scoring aid (the plug) if the score needs confirmation, e.g. if the score is not obvious. This we feel 8c is based off of the opportunity to NOT use a plug if the score IS obvious. However in the use of scanning software, this "scoring aid" (the scanning software) is used on every shot. IF there is concern over the result, then we feel a protest is an adequate means for review. The scanning software provides a certified 0.224 assessment for EVERY shot.

Your statement of "further reference of electronic scoring and appear to provide that shooters can protest and ask for manual re-scoring" is true as will be followed.
However, it is important we clarify this from the WRABF Section 8i referencing electronic scoring. We again interpret "manual re-scoring" as intervening manually (human intervention, not via computer-assigned result). The "manual" portion again will not be a plug, but the method i described earlier. As such, the rules do not specifically indicate, allude, reference, or suggest, that the manual review is to include a plug. So, we will not plug.


Garrett

ahighe
02-22-2018, 02:06 PM
Hi Garrett,
What will you be using for targets? I understand Orion won't support 25 m and 50 m targets any longer, and don't plan on selling them once the current supply runs out. Do you have a source for them afterwards and enough for the Nationals?

Thanks.
Albert

Wilbur
03-02-2018, 01:31 PM
Before I write something stupid, please tell me what this measuring system costs.