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Gene DeLoney
12-09-2017, 04:20 PM
I recently moved my barrel block forward 3 inches when I installed the rimfire barreled action so it is located about midway between the muzzle and the face of the action. Since it works very well with the rimfire setup, I decided to try the 6 ppc !.250 barrel with the block in this position. Didn't work. Scatters shots like a shotgun.
Just wondering if any one else has tried moving the block forward and come up with the same results.
Gene

jackie schmidt
12-11-2017, 04:47 PM
Gene, I am contemplating doing away with the barrel block. Sometimes I think the block causes problems.

A number of years ago, Speedy had a Rail that had one of those old long Kelbley Action, a Polar, I think. It was simply bolted to the top, and the barrel hung out.

That was one of the best shooting Rails I ever saw.

I can picture one of the big Bat Actions, possibly a model L, bedded and bolted to the Top. It would be a simple matter to modify my top to accomplish this.

Gene DeLoney
12-11-2017, 11:33 PM
Hi Jackie,
This is something that I tried and it didn't work. To much vibration. Scattered shots.
Like you, I had seen a long Kelbly action bolted to the top so I decided to bolt my BAT model M to the top. The first thing I noticed is that if I just bolted the action to the top I wouldn't be able to operate the bolt handle so I made up the block to raise the action up to be able to work the handle.I do think I remember seeing the top cut out for bolt handle clearance for the Kelbly setup but on my gun the way it is made that is not possible. A lot of machining for something that didn't work.

Boyd Allen
12-12-2017, 11:09 AM
Some barrel blocks seem to work reasonably well. This one belongs to Gary Ocock.

ELR Researcher
12-13-2017, 09:38 PM
Hi Jackie,
This is something that I tried and it didn't work. To much vibration. Scattered shots.
Like you, I had seen a long Kelbly action bolted to the top so I decided to bolt my BAT model M to the top. The first thing I noticed is that if I just bolted the action to the top I wouldn't be able to operate the bolt handle so I made up the block to raise the action up to be able to work the handle.I do think I remember seeing the top cut out for bolt handle clearance for the Kelbly setup but on my gun the way it is made that is not possible. A lot of machining for something that didn't work.

Gene - technically, those photos show an "action block" not a barrel block. A barrel block only "contacts" the barrel.

jackie schmidt
12-14-2017, 05:52 PM
Hi Jackie,
This is something that I tried and it didn't work. To much vibration. Scattered shots.
Like you, I had seen a long Kelbly action bolted to the top so I decided to bolt my BAT model M to the top. The first thing I noticed is that if I just bolted the action to the top I wouldn't be able to operate the bolt handle so I made up the block to raise the action up to be able to work the handle.I do think I remember seeing the top cut out for bolt handle clearance for the Kelbly setup but on my gun the way it is made that is not possible. A lot of machining for something that didn't work.

You probably saved me a big headache. Thanks.

Gene, I have a big walnut plank that I have often thought of making a Rail to out of. Just for the heck of it.

mwezell
12-14-2017, 07:30 PM
I recently moved my barrel block forward 3 inches when I installed the rimfire barreled action so it is located about midway between the muzzle and the face of the action. Since it works very well with the rimfire setup, I decided to try the 6 ppc !.250 barrel with the block in this position. Didn't work. Scatters shots like a shotgun.
Just wondering if any one else has tried moving the block forward and come up with the same results.
Gene

Did you re-tune the load to the new setup?

Gene DeLoney
12-14-2017, 10:25 PM
Gene - technically, those photos show an "action block" not a barrel block. A barrel block only "contacts" the barrel.

You are correct, that is an action block. Attached is a pic of the barrel block setup for the rimfire barrel.
Gene

Gene DeLoney
12-14-2017, 10:45 PM
You probably saved me a big headache. Thanks.

Gene, I have a big walnut plank that I have often thought of making a Rail to out of. Just for the heck of it.

Jackie, I recall a fellow by the name of Eric Miller created a top made of wood, might have been laminated. Had round bars attached to the bottom and rode on aluminum V blocks with class 7 air craft bearings installed at 45 degree angles. This was back in the mid 1980's and as I remember the thing shot really well. His reasoning was that the wood top damped out a lot of vibration.
Let us know if you decide to give the wood a try how it works out. You might be pleasantly surprised.
But be on the look out for termites.

Gene DeLoney
12-14-2017, 10:50 PM
Did you re-tune the load to the new setup?

Oh yeah, I tried different loads, different powder, and different seating depth.
Gene

Gene DeLoney
12-14-2017, 10:53 PM
Some barrel blocks seem to work reasonably well. This one belongs to Gary Ocock.

I know.....I know.........I know.............Gene

Gene DeLoney
12-14-2017, 11:08 PM
At our last match here at Ben Avery I walked the line and counted 34 rail guns and every one had the barrel block located close to the action face. And also all but 3 had Delrin sleeves around the barrel.
Some even have the block machined as part of the top so forget about moving those.
Maybe we should quit trying to build a better mouse trap.
But then again "nothing ventured, nothing gained' keeps coming up...................
Gene

Steve Kostanich
12-16-2017, 04:10 PM
Gene,

Thought you might find this interesting.

Many years back, up here in the NW, when Manley Oakely was in good health and doing experimenting, he tryed moving the block forward to see how it might work.

He redrilled his rail top so the block could be moved as far foward as possible, with a row of holes to the rear, so the block could be progressively moved back in regular increments.
With the block furthest forward, the groups were pretty poor. As the block was moved rearward, the groups became better and better, until in the rear most position did the the groups become acceptable.

FWIW
Steve Kostanich

ELR Researcher
12-16-2017, 09:17 PM
Assuming that the barrel block is positioned directly in front of the action, are there any well established guidelines for the length of the barrel block, how much materials there should be around the barrel (the minimum thickness of the barrel block), and the weight of the barreled action?

Gene DeLoney
12-16-2017, 09:32 PM
Gene,

Thought you might find this interesting.

Many years back, up here in the NW, when Manley Oakely was in good health and doing experimenting, he tryed moving the block forward to see how it might work.

He redrilled his rail top so the block could be moved as far foward as possible, with a row of holes to the rear, so the block could be progressively moved back in regular increments.
With the block furthest forward, the groups were pretty poor. As the block was moved rearward, the groups became better and better, until in the rear most position did the the groups become acceptable.

FWIW
Steve Kostanich

Steve,
I never saw but heard of a setup where the barrel was mounted in a V block that was full length of the barrel.
The clamping block on top could be moved for and aft by means of a series of drilled and tapped holes.
Also, more than one clamping block was tried but I guess the results were mixed.
Gene

Gene DeLoney
12-16-2017, 09:55 PM
Assuming that the barrel block is positioned directly in front of the action, are there any well established guidelines for the length of the barrel block, how much materials there should be around the barrel (the minimum thickness of the barrel block), and the weight of the barreled action?

My barrel block is 6 inches long with 4 bolts per side and is 3.5 in. wide by 3 in. tall. It looks like the Young block is a little bigger than that, and is about 8 inches long with 5 bolts per side.
I would think a typical barreled action with 1.450 diameter barrel would weigh in the vicinity of 12 lbs. depending on barrel length and action being used.
Gene

jbhotrod
12-17-2017, 12:05 PM
Has anyone tried running a Mann Accuracy device style V-bed?

Also, with the blockless Stolle rail mentioned earlier, any idea why it shot so good/how vibration was eliminated? Seeing as you couldn't get that style rail to work with your BAT M?

Would yall say theres much difference in the rails used in BR compared to the rails used in ammo/bullet testing, etc? Ie I aint never seen something like a Wiseman rail used in benchrest..

MilGunsmith
12-17-2017, 10:46 PM
We shoot the Mann V-block for ammo testing at work. We are experimenting with other designs also, like Thompson bearing slides, and barrel blocks or action blocks. Nothing seems to be the perfect solution yet. We shoot .223 up to .338 Norma Mag. Each caliber has its preference.

jackie schmidt
12-19-2017, 07:20 PM
Has anyone tried running a Mann Accuracy device style V-bed?

Also, with the blockless Stolle rail mentioned earlier, any idea why it shot so good/how vibration was eliminated? Seeing as you couldn't get that style rail to work with your BAT M?

Would yall say theres much difference in the rails used in BR compared to the rails used in ammo/bullet testing, etc? Ie I aint never seen something like a Wiseman rail used in benchrest..

There are several requirements of a good Rail Gun that is used in Benchrest Competition.

The first is to have true return to battery capabilities. That means a shooter can, by all expectations, shoot a group without ever looking through the scope and be confident that every shot will go into the group.

The second is easily accessed controles that do allow for quick adjustments in he point of aim if the need arises.

A foolproof sighter system that allows you to go to the sighter quickly and return to the record quickly.

Ease of setting up on the bench in the event of multi relay matches.

Any idea that meets these basic requirements will work.

Wilbur
12-23-2017, 12:01 PM
Jackie described a good rail gun....one that won't move and can be shot quickly...win or lose.

Ian_Owen
12-24-2017, 11:02 PM
I've seen a few photos of rail guns where the action was mounted in the block and not the barrel

The first one pictured belonged to Frank Murphy, and the second and third look like they were made by Jay Young, the fourth one was built by Mike Bryant and the third & sixth one look like long Stolle actions bolted to the top.

I assume these shot pretty well, or did they? The reason I ask is because I still see more barrel block rails compared to action block rails.

Steve Kostanich
12-25-2017, 05:57 PM
Ian.

I think the one third from the left is a Hasecuster, less a barrel block, with a Stolle Polar action.

The reason I think this, is the rest is a dead ringer for the Hasecuster I shoot.

FWIW

Steve Kostanich

Steve Kostanich
12-27-2017, 12:55 PM
Correction,

I think that is a Teddy not a Polar action by Stolle in the 3rd photo.

Steve K.

Dave Tooley
12-30-2017, 07:02 PM
Jackie,

Ever consider what I call a front sleeve. I epoxy a ring on the front of the receiver that doesn't extend beyond the face of the action. After the epoxy has cured mount the action on a mandrel. Turn the ring down leaving a small shoulder on the rear. Make up a sleeve for lack of a better description. Then epoxy the action with ring into the forward facing sleeve. I have an Xp-100 in a steel sleeve that still shots very well. Make the dimensions work so your max diameter will work.
No need to completely sleeve the action.

mtngun
12-30-2017, 11:10 PM
Dave, a picture of your partial ring thing would help. Sounds interesting.

Dave Tooley
12-31-2017, 09:23 AM
I'll try and get a picture up. If you look at the last set of pics in this thread some of the actions were sleeved then put in blocks. The full length sleeve is unnecessary and a lot of work. You just need a ring on the front of the action. I turned the ring down to size for the bore in the block, leaving a small shoulder on the rear towards the loading port. When I glued the prepared action-ring combo into the block I would set it up vertically and let gravity square everything up. The block could be a basic ?X4?X whatever in length. I use steel for the ring on the action and aluminum for the block on several I've built. If you built and tested a hundred of these a steel block might prove to be better and could be made smaller than one made of aluminum. I've built several test rigs for 338 caliber rifles and there's one thing I've learned. It takes mass to manage violence. Even with the PPC case mass matters.

mtngun
12-31-2017, 10:26 AM
You just need a ring on the front of the action.

OK, that makes more sense. But if you are going to glue the action into a block anyway, what is the advantage of the ring or a sleeve? Doesn't the block act as a sleeve?

Dave Tooley
12-31-2017, 04:15 PM
You could and I have taken a Remington action and turned down the front of the receiver to get the shoulder to use for alignment purposes. This was started back in the 70's using Remington actions. For all you old timers Nick Young had two UL built and even a HV with a front sleeve. Also it's much easier to to bore/ream a through hole rather than a two diameter hole of any length. I don't think you give up anything using the ring .

jbhotrod
01-02-2018, 02:00 AM
Anybody got a pic of the rail Sierra uses to test their bullets? And do yall think it would be competitive in BR? Just curious

Dave Tooley
01-02-2018, 08:55 AM
I've been in Sierra and Hornady's tunnels. One has a large heavy fixtures running on linear bearings. Ferris Pindell built Sierra's. It has a block on top that's hinged on one side and T-handle clamping screws on the other. Kinda like a hatch cover on a ship. 1.250" barrels are the norm. Also consider they are not looking for BR accuracy. Sub whatever the spec is and keep the presses running. Both grind through a lot of bullets everyday doing QC. If you're passing by on a hunting trip stop by for a tour. It can be enlightening in many ways. It always best to call ahead. I need to get back out to Hornady. They've expanded three times since I was last there.

jackie schmidt
01-03-2018, 08:19 AM
Anybody got a pic of the rail Sierra uses to test their bullets? And do yall think it would be competitive in BR? Just curious

Go back to my post #19 in this thread.

If a Rail on that design will meet those requirements, then yes.

Mike Bryant
02-26-2018, 09:27 PM
Gary Vincent shot a rail gun for many years that had a very small barrel block mounted at the front of the rail and then had the action supported at the receiver ring of I think a XP-100 action at the rear. I think the rear support was an adjustable wedge. It's been too long since I've seen it. Haven't seen Gary in years. He shot it very well and did well with it. I built a top for my rail gun one year where the block was in the front of the rail gun with the action and the rest of the barrel just hanging. I showed up with it at the nationals in St. Louis and hadn't shot it at home. Try as I might, I couldn't get it to shoot any better than .3's at 100 and .6's at 200. Larry Kuse looked at it and said, "Mike, we found out that didn't work years ago." Still have the top propped up against the side of my shop behind the air compressor. That big sleeve on that rail gun that Ian posted of mine shot pretty well and was pretty easy to change the barrel as the barrel was completely free floated. However, one barrel on it and I built my third rail gun with a delrin sleeved barrel block and a Stiller Diamondback drop port action. It was copied after a Jay Young rail gun and shot very well.

jbhotrod
03-05-2018, 09:25 PM
Thanks for responding yall.

Butch Lambert
08-12-2018, 05:02 PM
Anybody remember Jerry Hensler's lightweight rail gun with the barrel held in a block at the muzzle? The rest of the barrel and receiver hung out the back. He had it at Seymour, but I don't remember how it shot.

g n brezinski
02-19-2019, 09:13 AM
who would you go to for one of thes and what would you use for componets to build said set up.
gary b

g n brezinski
02-19-2019, 04:02 PM
what would you use for one of these and who would you get to build it.
gary

g n brezinski
12-23-2019, 03:52 PM
who builds these in the benchrest world.also how long are the barrels .they look about 24 inches.
gary b

Wilbur
12-31-2019, 03:58 PM
Anybody remember Jerry Hensler's lightweight rail gun with the barrel held in a block at the muzzle? The rest of the barrel and receiver hung out the back. He had it at Seymour, but I don't remember how it shot.

I don't remember anything these days but seems like he said it didn't do well. Better than some thought but not really great. Maybe Jerry will clear things up when he sees this thread...hope so!

mwezell
12-31-2019, 06:32 PM
Anybody remember Jerry Hensler's lightweight rail gun with the barrel held in a block at the muzzle? The rest of the barrel and receiver hung out the back. He had it at Seymour, but I don't remember how it shot.

Butch, maybe you will remember this...I recall a few years back, a test done where the end of a barrel was formed around and concrete poured into the form with just the muzzle flush or barely protruding. The results that I remember are that it wouldn't hit a bull in the arse with the muzzle fixed so solidly.