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CMaier
11-21-2016, 11:06 PM
ok rifle is a interarms mark x 300 win mag, built about 1977.
appears to be shot very little
cz action
new brass fits
once fired brass will not re chamber
fl sized brass will not fit( die turned to the shell holder)
brass sized in steps till touching shell holder does not fit
brass belt sized and then fl sized does not fit
it appears fl sized brass is 4-5 thou longer than new at the shoulder.
dia at the shoulder is right at .489/490.

this is the only "commercial" win mag i have. the other two custom
300 win mags have no issues with brass.

tried 2 different fl dies..
scratching my head

Clemson
11-21-2016, 11:35 PM
Try Go and NoGo headspace gauges to see what happens.

Bill Jacobs

CMaier
11-21-2016, 11:36 PM
go fits

Try Go and NoGo headspace gauges to see what happens.

Bill Jacobs

CMaier
11-21-2016, 11:45 PM
i can measure the difference in shoulder lengths,
but do not have an actual 420 dia tool, so can not
measure actual shoulder "datum" numbers.

force the bolt closed on .002 of tape on go gauge,
would not close on 2 layers(.004), so seems good to me.

CMaier
11-21-2016, 11:48 PM
take one of the fl dies and cut a few thou off...but then the belt
gets in the way..so bore a little too ?
yes ?? no??
want to fix the problem not the symptom

Rflshootr
11-22-2016, 02:52 AM
Make sure you do not have the die too far down. I have seen this before in some dies where you can actually distort, stretch & swell the belt making it too large for the chamber. The .004-.005 measurement says to me that you are stretching the case. Measure the belt on a once fired case and then on one you resized. If there is any distortion of the belt, length or diameter, adjust the die from a case fired in the rifle to just bump the shoulder, not the belt, .001. Back the die off about 1/4 of a turn and restart from there. Also if you are using an expander type die, make sure the inside of the case neck is well lubed or the case can get stretched from that also.

John Kielly
11-22-2016, 03:45 AM
Did I read you correctly that, once extracted, brass fired once in this chamber will not chamber in it again?

If this is the case, and you have difficulty extracting fired cases, then there's a possibility that you have setback in the lug abutment in the action. I've seen this spoken of in the case of M 98 actions that were case hardened rather than fully hardened & subject to long use or high pressure loads, but usually they were military actions.

Otherwise, I don't have a clue.

philipbrousseau
11-22-2016, 09:51 AM
try taking the de-cap expander rod out of the fl sizer, run a case through and see if it fits.

CMaier
11-22-2016, 11:07 AM
i do not use pull thru buttons so no stretch there.
i have a belt area sizing die and used it first before fl sizing
in the first case.

Rflshootr
11-22-2016, 11:31 AM
Are you pushing the face of the belt back with the belt die? That is what can cause the belt diameter, especially at the top of the belt to swell and not fit the c'bore of the chamber. Check it. It should only size the diameter of the belt, not set it back. I'd go with the full length die only and set it up to just touch the shoulder.

CMaier
11-22-2016, 11:35 AM
ok, a fired case,the base just above the belt is
about 7-8 thou bigger than an unfired case.
if can be forced back into the chamber with a
hard closing bolt.
i will play with dies some more.

CMaier
11-22-2016, 11:52 AM
using a belt sizing collet die, the case grows .003 at the shoulder.
the base goes from .515 to .510, new unfired is about .507 .
i can force the bolt close, but it ain't normal at all.

CMaier
11-22-2016, 12:52 PM
sooooo
i backed of the belt die to get a .511 dia, my print says .512.
length stayed good.
still very tight to chamber.
went to the redding body die, backed it off 1 1/2 turns from top
of the ram. case grew .004, and i doubt i touched the shoulder.

Rflshootr
11-22-2016, 01:17 PM
Now keep moving the die down and sizing the same case until you get it to bump the shoulder back to your fire form length and see if it fits.

CMaier
11-22-2016, 01:20 PM
so i got to a point that the case seems to be 1-2 thou long
and am at the ram with the die.
hmmmmm
put a .002 feeler gauge under the case, in the shell
holder and guess what...very close to fitting, snug bolt
closure.
.004 feeler gauge under the case and bingo a reasonable
bolt closure.
what a dance to get to "sized" brass.
now to see if i can get 4-5 off the shell holder squarely.

thanks guys

Rflshootr
11-22-2016, 02:00 PM
Just in case you didn't see the instructions for a collet resizing die...here they are.


Operating Instructions

1.This collet die is universal and it works on all belted magnum cartridges (except 224, 240, 378 and 460 Weatherby). There are no extra collets required. Before each use, be sure that the die and collet are absolutely clean - especially the slots on the collet.


2.Always use a good high-pressure lubricant on the outside of the collet, and on your shell casing. We strongly recommend using "Imperial Sizing Die Wax" for best results. It is easy to use, it's not sticky and it is very popular with reloaders - because it works. Don't use any type of liquid lube.


3.This collet die should only be used on cartridge cases that have already been resized with a full length (or) neck sizing die. Always headspace on the shoulder, not on the belt. We have had belted magnum cases last more than 20 firings with maximum loads. However, always examine the inside of your cases for signs of brass stretching just above the belt.


4.The "top" of this die serves as a case width gauge that will identify your oversize cases. The cases that don't fit inside should be resized with the collet die. This avoids overworking the brass and insures a perfect fit in your chamber.


5.Cases that are fired repeatedly without ever using the collet resizing die could swell beyond recovery. Always check fired cases to see if they will drop freely into the top of the die. Remember that the size of different rifle chambers can vary considerably.


6.Note that the collet is slightly tapered. The small end is identified by a 45 degree cut on that end. Slide the collet over the case and be sure that it contacts the belt. The small end of the collet must face the mouth of the case.


7.Remove the locking collar and insert the die (from the bottom) into your press as far as it will go. Adjust the die all the way into the press, as far as it will go. Then replace the locking collar on top of the die. The ram of your press (with shell holder inserted) should have a small clearance under the die - if possible. This setting will allow you to resize the expansion ring on your case (just above the belt) to .510" or as needed.


8.If resizing seems to require too much pressure, withdraw the case, rotate it, and press it into the die again. Be sure the collet stays seated against the belt. The collet can easily be separated from the case by inverting it, holding it against the shell holder and carefully use your press to push the case out of your collet and into the die.


9.If you have any questions about the proper use of your belted magnum collet resizing die, contact Larry Willis at Innovative Technologies at it@mpinet.net (or) call at 407-695-2685.




The biggest handloading problem with belted magnums is now easily solved. Those new, short, fat, unbelted, magnum "barrel burners" will stand a little shorter now! I'm planning to do a lot more shooting with some of the proven belted magnum calibers in the future. These calibers provide awesome performance and they reach out to longer range with much more authority behind the bullet. The load that I described earlier is safe in my particular rifle. Be sure to watch for pressure signs when handloading for something that is a little unusual, especially if your loading manual doesn't cover it. By the way ... if you decide to try hunting with ammo like the load that I've described, you're probably going to like it. You will also have to handload it yourself because there's nothing available like it "off the shelf".

Good luck!!

John Kielly
11-22-2016, 04:53 PM
Grind .004" off the top of the shell holder?

CMaier
11-22-2016, 05:55 PM
Grind .004" off the top of the shell holder?
"now to see if i can get 4-5 off the shell holder squarely."

but i did start hitting the belt with the die
on some cases.
may have to talk to redding about this.

really need the correct tool to measure
datum length of the cases.

alinwa
11-22-2016, 06:29 PM
............may have to talk to redding about this.



Why?

What does "redding" have to do with it?

CMaier
11-22-2016, 06:48 PM
the brass is sometimes hitting the top of the belt cutout
in the die.
this at a point where the shoulder is set back and fits the chamber.
they have been known to make adjustments to dies to make them work with
your rifle.( it is a redding body die)
so while cutting back the top of the shell holder will set the shoulder back,
some of the belts are hitting the die.
we are talking small numbers.
1-2 thou.
suggestions ??

Why?

What does "redding" have to do with it?

alinwa
11-23-2016, 12:41 AM
the brass is sometimes hitting the top of the belt cutout
in the die.
this at a point where the shoulder is set back and fits the chamber.
they have been known to make adjustments to dies to make them work with
your rifle.( it is a redding body die)
so while cutting back the top of the shell holder will set the shoulder back,
some of the belts are hitting the die.
we are talking small numbers.
1-2 thou.
suggestions ??

I'm sorry, I misunderstood your thrust. I (wrongly) assumed you were feeling that the Redding die was somehow to blame and you needed to "take it up with Redding."

I agree that asking them what they'd charge to modify the die to fit an out-of-spec chamber is reasonable.

I'm a die-fit-freak.......

Belted mags present some problems, it is for this and other reasons that I don't do belted magnums in accuracy platforms.

Rflshootr
11-23-2016, 02:23 AM
Calling Redding would be a good option IMO. My experience with them in the past has been positive. They may have you send the die back with a few cases and diagnose the problem. All you can do is ask and see what they have to say.

CMaier
11-23-2016, 04:33 PM
i hope to shoot this rifle again sat .
at that time i will be able to measure
the case length at the datum line and know
if the chamber is short at that point.
std head space at the belt appears to be in spec.
have a great thanksgiving!

cloudrepair
11-26-2016, 10:02 AM
ok rifle is a interarms mark x 300 win mag, built about 1977.
appears to be shot very little
cz action
new brass fits
once fired brass will not re chamber
fl sized brass will not fit( die turned to the shell holder)
brass sized in steps till touching shell holder does not fit
brass belt sized and then fl sized does not fit
it appears fl sized brass is 4-5 thou longer than new at the shoulder.
dia at the shoulder is right at .489/490.

this is the only "commercial" win mag i have. the other two custom
300 win mags have no issues with brass.

tried 2 different fl dies..
scratching my head

Does that rifles barrel have a very faint engraving on the top about 8" from chaimber telling of maker
PO Ackley and we're work was done?
I remember a interarms that I had for a while that was a 7mm rem mag that was a Ackley rifle and the chaimber had a radius at the shoulder to neck junction like a Weatherby. It shot great and no problems with brass ,I was using Lee dies at the time. Sorry no help but very curious.

CMaier
11-26-2016, 03:32 PM
sorry but no. nice flat shoulder
see below


Does that rifles barrel have a very faint engraving on the top about 8" from chaimber telling of maker
PO Ackley and we're work was done?
I remember a interarms that I had for a while that was a 7mm rem mag that was a Ackley rifle and the chaimber had a radius at the shoulder to neck junction like a Weatherby. It shot great and no problems with brass ,I was using Lee dies at the time. Sorry no help but very curious.

CMaier
11-26-2016, 03:40 PM
gentlemen the shoulder length of the chamber is 0.014 TOO SHORT.
the chamber spec is 2.279+0.01, and my fired, deprimed brass is
2.265. ammo spec is 2.270-.0070...so factory ammo just does fit,
maybe some will not.
it still shoots well( 4 shots under 1" including a cold clean bore shot in the group)
but i think i need to fix this.

alinwa
11-27-2016, 01:09 AM
Does that rifles barrel have a very faint engraving on the top about 8" from chaimber telling of maker
PO Ackley and we're work was done?
I remember a interarms that I had for a while that was a 7mm rem mag that was a Ackley rifle and the chaimber had a radius at the shoulder to neck junction like a Weatherby. It shot great and no problems with brass ,I was using Lee dies at the time. Sorry no help but very curious.

Holey Kowww......you sold a PO Ackley gun?? I hope you got paid well!

But anyways....there were tens of thousands of guns assembled from the Interarms actions, most (all?) of which have the infamous M98 double-shoulder AFAIK, headspaces all over the map is what I've seen. And opinions/arguments long and hard regarding how to bottom out said shoulders! And many a reblue from Parker Hale to MKX, store brands, liddle shops and Ho'Made Herters-based blunderbusses with salts leaching out of the joints for years :) Some you could see light through.....

LOL

Those Golden Oldie-Moldie days of chuck 'er up and get 'er done.....

CMaier
11-27-2016, 02:05 AM
ok guys i will need some advice on how to proceed.
i have access to 2 300 wm reamers, and could just rent a box stock one.
one is the reamer i used for the mk 13 rifle i just built.
it uses near stock numbers but not sure on the throat, as it is set up for
a 220 sie mk at 3.500 COAL.
supposedly this round( mk248 mod1) will chamber is a stock 300
wm rifle. i do not know.
the other has a long throat and tight neck
sounds like basic reamer rental is the way to go.

next is bbl removal. i have no luck removing bbls without marking then,
so i need some ideas/hints on how not to screw up a nice bluing job.

i do not know if anyone makes a shoulder based go gage, so was thinking of sizing
a pc of brass to measure some where in the middle of the spec and use it,

help

cloudrepair
11-27-2016, 09:38 PM
I haven't been happy with many methods till I made a heavy duty barrel vise. and I found copper sheet works good for holding and protecting barrels and actions. or I cut a strip of Pepsi carton and us that. And for the Mauser I cut a hole the shape of the receiver head in a piece of alluminum bar 1/2 x 2.5 about fifteen inches long that uses the integrated recoil lug. I have a bad signal here so I can't upload pics or I would not sure If this helps but good luck. I've only found the belted gages. Not sure we're your located but I might be able to let you borrow a reamer it just a standard 300 win mag from pt&g

cloudrepair
11-27-2016, 09:43 PM
Holey Kowww......you sold a PO Ackley gun?? I hope you got paid well!

But anyways....there were tens of thousands of guns assembled from the Interarms actions, most (all?) of which have the infamous M98 double-shoulder AFAIK, headspaces all over the map is what I've seen. And opinions/arguments long and hard regarding how to bottom out said shoulders! And many a reblue from Parker Hale to MKX, store brands, liddle shops and Ho'Made Herters-based blunderbusses with salts leaching out of the joints for years :) Some you could see light through.....

LOL

Those Golden Oldie-Moldie days of chuck 'er up and get 'er done.....

Sadly no I didn't get paid good for the Ackley rifle

CMaier
11-27-2016, 10:06 PM
i looked at the drawings of the 2 reamers that are available, and
one of the 2 will work,
largest pc of brass i have is 2.272 and i need closer to 2.279.
think i will fill a case with lead so no compression and use
tape on the base to lengthen it.....

Rflshootr
11-28-2016, 03:46 PM
Headspace is off the belt. Wouldn't you want to run the reamer in just to the point of touching the bottom of the belt counter bore that is already there? I believe you already determined that the headspace is already correct earlier. Right?

CMaier
11-28-2016, 04:25 PM
correct.
but a shoulder datum gage would allow me "better" control of that cut.
as i said i think i am about .015 short, but that is from brass,
not a hard measurement.
in reality this is a repair to a hunting rifle, not a br or target rifle.
min spec chamber would be great, but below min spec works if only .005
below min( target rifle chamber reamer).
new brass is way short of chamber min spec.
so what i need is a chamber long enough i can size brass for it.
my dies say i can handle .005 below min spec. a shoulder datum gage
would allow me to get between min and min minus .005.
it is a hunting rifle i only have to be in the ball park.
thinking of turning a tool to measure the shoulder length.


Headspace is off the belt. Wouldn't you want to run the reamer in just to the point of touching the bottom of the belt counter bore that is already there? I believe you already determined that the headspace is already correct earlier. Right?

CMaier
11-30-2016, 01:22 PM
pacific tool and gauge makes a shoulder datum head space gauge.
got one coming

CMaier
12-08-2016, 04:45 PM
the shoulder datum gauge got here today,
and my best measurement said i was .013 short.
i did the reaming by hand with a 300 win mag match
reamer.
done, now to shoot and size some brass and see how it
all works.

Rflshootr
12-08-2016, 06:33 PM
Good luck. Let us know how it works out.

CMaier
12-08-2016, 09:09 PM
the one test i can do and does work,
the brass will now chamber without
resizing. could not do that before.
one step in the right direction.


Good luck. Let us know how it works out.